Is it wrong to objectify men?

[Athrawes]

I suspect it is.
I made a "funny" comment to a female colleague about the attractiveness of father's at parent teacher interviews - just a throw away line for a laugh whilst waiting.
If I was a man saying that about the yummy mummies it would be very wrong. So I guess it's as wrong to do it in reverse?

🙄
I personally would say OP wasn't objectifying the man, as well as not being predatory

"Women do it too" is always an interesting topic of conversation. Lots of anecdata about particular women at people's work etc that we have to accept on face value.

Whereas predatory men, men objectifying women, you can find examples of all over the internet. I posted one link above. Heres another

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/woman-selfies-street-harrassers-harrassment-catcalls-men-instagram-noa-jansma-a7983991.html%3famp

Please can I have similar links showing objectification of men by women (no porn though please) and we can talk about that rather than a woman who may or may not exist

@insideandout3

"Yes it is wrong to objectify men- did you really need to ask that?"

That wasn't the question. Your objection was to, "A woman objectifying a man is rude, but it’s not predatory..."

Would you say the OP's comment was "predatory"?

Why are you asking that? The OP's opening question was about behaviour which was wrong. She didn't ask if it was predatory.

The idea that lecherous behaviour by a woman is just "rude" is a silly minimisation; probably based on clinging on to a misplaced notion of class analysis and ignores the actual individual circumstances.

"I personally would say OP wasn't objectifying the man, as well as not being predatory"

I agree.

"'Women do it too' is always an interesting topic of conversation. Lots of anecdata about particular women at people's work etc that we have to accept on face value"

I've been pondering why the OP started this thread but didn't include the maybe-objectifying phrase. My hunch is the OP couldn't think of anything a woman would say to another woman in this situation that would rise to the offensive level of "objectification" and also be believed as something a woman actually said about an attractive man.

The comment has to remain unmentioned for the hypothetical reverse sexism to be stretched into plausibility.

@Nandakanda

Men don't give a fuck about stupid shit like "being objectified".

succinct

Men don't give a fuck about stupid shit like "being objectified".

Because men don't need to.

Men are so afraid of being sexually objectified by other men they rearrange entire civilizations and enact elaborate laws to quell their fears of faggotry. Lots of countries still punish homosexuality with jail terms and legal execution.

See also: gay panic, no homo

@insideandout3

Men are so afraid of being sexually objectified by other men they rearrange entire civilizations and enact elaborate laws to quell their fears of faggotry. Lots of countries still punish homosexuality with jail terms and legal execution.

See also: gay panic, no homo

fears of faggotry ? Yeeessss......I think I have heard of this thing (unlike Japp)

"'Women do it too' is always an interesting topic of conversation. Lots of anecdata about particular women at people's work etc that we have to accept on face value"

Oh my - you're really showing your true colours "we believe you , but only if it suits what we want to hear"

And someone was claiming there was no minimisation on this thread?

The minimizing comes from you and the OP when you both offer intentionally vague Bad Woman stories.

I guess we're supposed to say a secretary (an "experienced senior secretary" not one of those powerless receptionist nobodies) getting an inappropriate going away gift for a male colleague is just as bad as...rape?...pornography?...strip clubs?

If the gift was a monogrammed dildo you would have said so.

If "pawed them at office dos" meant she grabbed their crotches or forced kisses on them, you would have said so.

Like the OP, you need to stay vague about the details or else the comparison of men's routine sexual objectification to your tasteless Slutty Secretary would reveal just how much more dire and dangerous the consequences of sexual objectification are for women.

I don't think you said anything wrong, op, and a throwaway remark from a man about being in the company of attractive women would not be wrong either.

Objectifying is a bit more than that and borders on or is sleazy.

Oh my - you're really showing your true colours "we believe you , but only if it suits what we want to hear"

I have no reason to disbelieve you, apart from the fact you regularly post unevidenced anecdata on these threads.
Give me an example (link or whatever) of a man being objectified. Go on. You can do it

A bigger wrong of objectification against women doesn’t make a smaller wrong of objectification against men right or not worthy of being discussed.

Except we aren't discussing men being objectified.
Someone making a lecherous comment isn't objectification

@QuentinWinters

Oh my - you're really showing your true colours "we believe you , but only if it suits what we want to hear" I have no reason to disbelieve you, apart from the fact you regularly post unevidenced anecdata on these threads. Give me an example (link or whatever) of a man being objectified. Go on. You can do it

Here you go.

One of my favourite (suits)

Good article in Conversation on the objectification of men and the double standard and why it should be erased.

theconversation.com/why-the-sexual-objectification-of-men-isnt-just-a-bit-of-fun-103145

That's a terrific article, lays out the positions well. In summary:

Sexual objectification takes two forms, the first is eroticised depictions of female bodies as mere resources that deny women’s agency and legitimise coercive behaviour and sexual violence.

In the second, rather than reducing women to resources, men apply social pressure for women to enthusiastically embrace exploitive mistreatment, a subtly ideological coercion instead of brutal force.

The article goes on to say it's moving away from the significantly more pervasive first type to examine the second type, "Prevailing physical, political and economic power inequalities are such that in practice a man’s agency is much less likely than a woman’s to be overridden. Consequently, the objectification of men is much less likely to result in sexual violence."

The rest talks about men being ideologically pressured into "narcissism, individualism, materialism and manipulation", quite the opposite of the "subtle ideological coercion to accept mistreatment" women get.

For imagery that object objectifies men in the same way as women you need to look at some content aimed at the gay market.

It is much more analogous to the presentation of women.

I don't like it when men make comments about women and in the workplace I do say to Women, don't say that, you wouldn't like it if it were the other way around.

Not that it happens very much.

Conversely I've been in the happy position of men in the office chatting about strip clubs, prostitutes etc.

A recentish team event (I'm the only woman) involved the men showing each other pics on their phones of women, and chatting about stag nights, strippers etc.

I've never seen that the other way around. It really isn't the same and however much people insist it is, I am sure they are just plain wrong.

There is also s double standard in terms of women being held to higher standards. Sort of, if women want men not to talk about this stuff at work in crass way in earshot, women at work must never say oh he's good looking while out of earshot.

For imagery that object objectifies men in the same way as women you need to look at some content aimed at the gay market.
So men are objectified by other men.
Therefore reducing objectification of men would be better tackled by MRAs than feminists.

Indeed.

The vile secretory referenced is of course wrong, and sure there are plenty examples where women have some power over men like in this job role- but they don’t have that power because they are a woman, where as men, all men, have that power precisely because they are men and we aren’t. So a woman in a job that gives her power over male employees has a type of power over them, yet they still retain their male privilege that gives them power over her. That’s what intersectionality refers to, or how a white woman may hold some power over a moc due to her skin colour, yet he still holds a great deal of power over her due to being a man.

Of course there are nice men out there, I’m married to a very nice one. But even the nicest most gentle men still hold male privilege that gives them power over us just because of their sex. It takes very very little for a very nice, gentle, kind and respectful man to make a woman aware of how much power he holds over her, and as boys are socialised very very differently to girls, it’s highly unlikely that even the most decent man hasn’t at some point said something he thinks is nothing but that is objectifying, demeaning or harmful to women. That’s the thing about holding power due to class, it requires being aware and vigilant not to misuse that. A lot how I don’t think I’m a racist for a second, I would never consciously discriminate or judge or hurt anyone based on skin colour. Yet I’m aware that research shows poc are given less time in interviews, and are less likely to get the job than white people. Now I would consider myself a non racist white woman, yet in hindsight it’s entirely possible that when I’ve been in charge of interviewing for new staff I’ve been unconsciously biased towards favouring white people in this way, and unintentionally used my white privilege in a way that contributes to the class oppression poc face because of skin colour. For future I’d try to be more aware, but I know no one escapes socialisation and the same applies to sex role stereotype socialisation. Which is why it’s important to see that all men have the potential to misuse their male privilege in the same way, so that we ensure we have dialogue about their part in this, directly or by not challenging other males. So yes it’s not only other males who cause this, it’s everyone’s precious sons and brothers and husbands (mine included) which is why we need to open our eyes and be direct about teaching them to be vigilant about not abusing their power over us and not being complacent about other males attitudes to this.

Men being objectified by gay men isn’t women’s problem and doesn’t have any place on a feminism board.

Equally this is a general discussion, no one owes anyone sympathy for the quoted experience of one woman once objectifying their son. If that was posted as a specific thread to seek support in the appropriate section then that’s different, but if posters bring in personal experiences to a general discussion there isn’t an expectation of derailing the thread to offer sympathy, rather than dealing with the general discussion point at hand. And especially on a feminism board there is no place for women to be required to fall over ourselves to offer sympathy for men. Our reality doesn’t have to revolve around men, we are not merely support humans (to steal another posters term from another thread) that exist to centre men. It’s ok for women to put our needs first and on a feminism board anyone who doesn’t get that should jump ship. Women are allowed one place just for us.

Men being objectified by gay men isn’t women’s problem and doesn’t have any place on a feminism board.

Not directly, but I can see why it might become relevant to the conversation.

A white woman trying to claim monopoly on the experience of being racially discriminated against might be reminded that POC face racism much more. A woman trying to claim monopoly on the experience of being objectified might be reminded that men face it too.

My partner has had his bum pinched a few times by (presumably) gay men on nights out - he trains lot and has a pretty perky bum to be fair lol. I've not had it happen to me since I was a student. I think most blokes are maybe too afraid nowadays.

Or maybe I just have a fat arse nowadays. 😂👀

That’s what intersectionality refers to, or how a white woman may hold some power over a moc due to her skin colour, yet he still holds a great deal of power over her due to being a man.

Not sure I agree with this either. I think most white women are more privileged than MOC, especially middle class women who are usually backed by a white male. I do think part of men's power is that they often don't give a fuck and are much more likely to disregard the opinions of potential opponents and just go for their goal, rather than get involved on the politics of it all like so many women seem to in the office.