Update on my case, and on exactly how much Girlguiding is spending of their money

[KatieAlcock]

As a charity. On fighting a volunteer concerned about safeguarding who doesn't believe in inner gender essence.

The explanation is in the next post because it's long and tedious but the answer is "at least £35,000 and probably more like £100,000".

Hmmm I just have an ad for the "anti-feminism survival guide" below.

Women who don't "hold the identity of woman" are not allowed to be leaders. There was a very sad post a while back from a leader whose fellow leader had felt she no longer identifies as a woman, had a mastectomy, was told she couldn't be a leader, so had come on camp as a Unit Helper (a role open to men), had to sleep in a single tent and was using the men's loos (which made the male helpers uncomfortable).

This is utterly scandalous - why is this not being reported?

So originally GG said that female children who don't perform feminine sex stereotypes (and identify as transboys) should be excluded - which is transphobic but only to biologically female transpeople (it is direct discrimination on the basis that they are trans and also female).

They were called out on that, so changed the policy for children, such that it is now not logical or consistent across different sexes. But they didn't change it for adults.

So if you're an adult female who doesn't identify with feminine sex stereotypes and an ideology (gender) based on those, then you are excluded?

How many biological women truly identify with sex stereotypes? In a culture where rape is basically legal - given how often it is successfully prosecuted - and there is so much violent porn and violence against women and girls in general? Where girls are period shamed in school? I don't. I don't mind being a biological woman but I don't identify with 'femininity' in any shape or form and less so since I had children (only possible because of my female biology) - I'm too busy caring for those kids to bother about makeup, nice clothes even if I wanted to (which I don't).

Who on earth do the GG think their membership is?

I can't think of any person who has daughters in brownies or guides who would be ok with this.

Also, surely if they're allowing biological males and females to join, but only those with a gender identity of feminine (I bet a lot of guides would disagree with this anyway) - surely they are then discriminating against all the other boys who want to join and share accommodation? Just because they don't have a 'feminine' gender identity?

I can't get my head around it.

They don’t need this kind of message

Perhaps, then GGHQ should not have drunk the transactivist Koolaid about self-ID and "inclusivity" at the cost of girls and young women's opportunities to learn and bond in an all-female environment?

Girls get enough sexist bullying and sexual harassment at school & in public. Female-only, single-sex organisations and spaces are important respites from the sexism that we all grow up with and internalise.

To claim that self-id is 'inclusive' only works if you ignore girls & women's rights.

How many biological women truly identify with sex stereotypes? In a culture where rape is basically legal - given how often it is successfully prosecuted - and there is so much violent porn and violence against women and girls in general? Where girls are period shamed in school? I don't. I don't mind being a biological woman but I don't identify with 'femininity' in any shape or form and less so since I had children (only possible because of my female biology) - I'm too busy caring for those kids to bother about makeup, nice clothes even if I wanted to (which I don't).

#MeToo

@Coyoacan

Many moons ago, I was a junior Counsel's clerk and one of my colleagues said that approach was known as 'using a sledgehammer to crack a nut'.

It's a blatant attempt to intimidate the other side.

So the girl guides are an organisation well known for encouraging nonconformity in girls.

But if you go that extra half an inch, identify as a man, and actually uphold the bloody ideology that they are now committed to, you're fucking out???

Summed up by Al1Langdownthecleghole

Or maybe, just “women are wrong”.

So the girl guides are an organisation well known for encouraging nonconformity in girls.

I don't think this can be true anymore.

What about a non-binary person? Either it's sex segregated - which it's clearly not now biological males who feel feminine are in, or it's segregated by gender.

If it's segregated by gender it has to be pink, frilly, makeup, simpering ONLY (I welcome someone from GG in the know about what list of sex stereotypes they're going to apply) or almost everyone (no matter their sex / gender).

If they allow GNC and non-binary (gender) biological females then why not males? There are plenty of biological males who are GNC or non-binary and excluding them would therefore be discriminatory under the current set up. They're biologically male but their gender would be the same (non binary, GNC) as lots of the girls there. I know a heck of a lot of kids - XX and XY - who wear pretty much jeans and a t-shirt with similar short hairstyles and interests. It's been established that being biologically male is not a reason for exclusion.

Perhaps they're excluding the GI Joe type masculine genders, but I don't see how they can reasonably exclude non-binary males.

It's also rather dodgy to apply a different set of inconsistent rules to children and adults. But the whole thing doesn't make sense.

I had a quick look at the GGUK accounts
the costs of fighting this case are a drop in the ocean to them
their investments generate over £1m of income alone
a £1.2m grant last year from the Pears foundation dwarfs
the costs of that hearing

but interestingly their annual report makes no mention of the fact that men are able to use assumed names to pass as women

@Beamur

I doubt any girls were asked to leave. Gender non conformity is pretty widespread in the GG community amongst girls and leaders. I don't know if any boys have actually asked to join, ditto transwomen as leaders/helpers. Which in a way makes this even more tenuous. They're committing significant funds to fight a principle which is mostly, if not entirely speculative.

Alas, I have a friend who is a GG leader and a young transitioner in their area was managed out of the organisation. No transgirls have joined, but a transboy was asked to leave. It's actually happening.

BigGee
I stand corrected again.

Sorry! I've just caught up with the posts and realised someone had beaten me to it. I'm as staggered as you are - I genuinely couldn't believe it was true at first.

An adult female actively transitioning to a man (in their eyes at least) with male hormones/mastectomy I can understand being turfed out. They can be as misogynistic as other men and would hardly be female role model anyway. Children can't do this, only identify with sex stereotypes or not so a GNC girl absolutely belongs there.

Even a very feminine boy shouldn't find it the best environment as GG should really be about breaking down sex stereotypes, not embracing them as transgirls clearly have.

All credit Katie for standing ground on this and bringing incoherent policies to light.

Who covered Helen’s stuff initially? Was it Janice Turner? I wonder if there would be any interest in a follow-up.

Plus, it's now absolutely guaranteed to hit the newspapers. Win or lose the whole country will know the girl guides are allowing boys to sleep in
the same tents as girls, and deliberately withholding that info from parents

This is true, well I certainly hope the papers make it front page news. I've said the same about other places/institutions going the same woke way. It's fine, you do whatever you think is right, but advertise the fact your going woke. Make big news of your changing rooms being mixed sex, dont hide it in measly words like gender, say it loud so people have a choice before they enter your premises. Sadly these places dont listen to me.

Dp just asked a really good question. I went through and loved guiding and totally agree single sex spaces valid and useful.

Scouting (dp did) obviously went mixed.

What are their rules on mixed sex accommodation. Do Beavers packs have to have a female leader if there are girls? Do they let boys and girls share tents? I’m assuming not?

I haven’t been in scouting for a few years but if we were taking girls to camp, we needed a female leader and separate accommodations. I believe this may have changed and mixed sex sleeping arrangements are allowed as long as this is clear to parents in the planning phase. The expectation in girl guides is that it is ya mixed sex organization and GG leaders are explicitly not allowed to let parents know that a male youth member is present. So mixed sex accommodation is essentially a secret.
Stephen Whittle says this is fine because Stephen lost Stephen’s virginity as a Queen’s Guide at a camp with a lovely sensitive Scout.
When I take my guides to a mixed camp I give the girls AND their parents a no sex no drugs no booze and I will be returning you home at your parents expense from wherever in the world in you are if you decide to break the rules.
GG believes that putting a teenage transgirl in a tent with a female teenager and not telling parents is fine and nothing could possibly happen. Two opposite sex teens alone all night is perfectly safe.

Who advised GG on this disastrous policy? Was it David Challenor, currently in prison for raping a child.

How can they not see how bad this makes them look?

I believe the Challenors were raised as potential advisors but it was never confirmed. Certainly Amy tweeted at one point bragging that they were involved in the policy. I can’t remember details though.

GG believes that putting a teenage transgirl in a tent with a female teenager and not telling parents is fine and nothing could possibly happen. Two opposite sex teens alone all night is perfectly safe.

Is it also the case that the girls themselves are not informed and thus might not know? If true, for some girls this could be awfully traumatic regardless of whether anything happens and a huge, huge breach of trust and destruction of sense of security and belief in adults in charge.

I understand that it might not be very likely this would occur in reality but could this be the case in theory?

Just incase people don’t know who the Challenors are. Charming trans gender Aimee and daddy dearest. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/aimee-challenor-father-rape-election-agent-green-party-investigation-a8725701.html

IlloveJKR
When people make such comments, I feel physically sick. It’s all a huge, huge breach of trust. The whole thing. I was so lucky not to have been raped myself. Been in some very sticky situations including a pensioner peodophile. Many children just don’t say anything. I didn’t even as an exchanges student at 17 and being pinned against walls by a boy.

Yes, the price of validation for a tiny minority is the destruction of the sense of safety, wellbeing and ability to participate in public life of girls (and women).

It's not great that the most common arguments are whether very serious risks such as rape or pregnancy could occur. What about just feeling safe? Feeling trust? Being able to believe what you're told? Feeling like you matter, your feelings matter?

My understanding was that AC said they were advising GG but GG denied it. I'm not sure how connected to reality AC is.