Update on my case, and on exactly how much Girlguiding is spending of their money

[KatieAlcock]

As a charity. On fighting a volunteer concerned about safeguarding who doesn't believe in inner gender essence.

The explanation is in the next post because it's long and tedious but the answer is "at least £35,000 and probably more like £100,000".

Yes, the PR they're going to get from this will ruin them. So many parents who have no idea of what's been going on will suddenly realise.

They did at least change that, after Helen and I complained. But they still exclude - explicitly - many adults who are both legally and biologically female.

The managing out of transboys has been dropped. No girl identifying as a boy will asked to leave - it was in the policy but isn't now.
I do hope that this case brings this issue to a head.
GG is still a great experience for many girls and it is a shame that this has cast a shade as I do think, deep down, they do think they're doing the right thing.

Well done Katie and thank you for your Samson vs Goliath efforts on behalf of girls. It takes a huge amount of courage to do what you're doing. I'll do a bit more digging later today.

oh I'm glad to hear that's not the case any more. I hope they see sense about the rest of the policies too!

Samson vs Goliath efforts
Well, my hair has grown a bit in lockdown (Sorry!)

@NotAGirl thank you will definitely check budget and donate

@Datun actually I've been infuriated at how little the MSM are reporting on this. GirlGuiding is a huge organisation and should be under scrutiny in this matter but then the MSM in this country seem to balk at doing any real journalism these days!

Whilst I'm delighted that they are keeping gender nonconforming girls, how does that sit with the rules?

Keeping girls who identify as boys directly undermines the entire premise of admitting boys who identify as girls.

Either those boys are girls, in which case the transboys are boys, or they're not.

The rank double standards alone should have their entire case thrown out.

[quote Graphista]@NotAGirl thank you will definitely check budget and donate

@Datun actually I've been infuriated at how little the MSM are reporting on this. GirlGuiding is a huge organisation and should be under scrutiny in this matter but then the MSM in this country seem to balk at doing any real journalism these days! [/quote]
Yes, it's a bit of a puzzle. Sometimes they report, sometimes they don't. It's like they have a set of rules that are inconsistent and unknowable.

However, with everything else coming together, hopefully they will realise it's a story that is of great national interest.

@Datun

Whilst I'm delighted that they are keeping gender nonconforming girls, how does that sit with the rules?

Keeping girls who identify as boys directly undermines the entire premise of admitting boys who identify as girls.

Either those boys are girls, in which case the transboys are boys, or they're not.

The rank double standards alone should have their entire case thrown out.

I'm highlighting my own comment, because I don't want anyone to think I'm not happy for gender non-conforming girls to be included. Obviously, it would be outrageous for them to be excluded, given how the girl guides pride themselves on promoting girls.

And I know that originally the guides adhered to the ideology by wanting to exclude them. And were persuaded to reverse that decision.

I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of encouraging nonconformity in girls, as an organisation, but simultaneously being unable to include them because you're committed to a sexist ideology.

The cognitive dissonance should be making their heads explode.

I wondered where the other thread went. Glad I found this one.

Those non conforming girls who WERE put of of GG, will they be allowed to return? Receive an apology? Such a shitty thing to do to a child.

God @Datun that is even worse! I mean great gender GC girls still are allowed to stay but it is just confirmation that their logic makes no sense and therefore this is all just about pleasing men and boys and screwing women and girls. Soul destroying how callous an organisation it is.

I doubt any girls were asked to leave. Gender non conformity is pretty widespread in the GG community amongst girls and leaders.
I don't know if any boys have actually asked to join, ditto transwomen as leaders/helpers.
Which in a way makes this even more tenuous. They're committing significant funds to fight a principle which is mostly, if not entirely speculative.

Who's funding their legal costs? Are GG splashing their own/their members' money about or have they had support from somewhere to pay for this?

The angry person upthread suggested they're not funding it via their members. So if the members aren't paying, who is?

It feels like a very twisted homophobia to me Datun, particularly given Katie’s comment that non-conforming biological women are not allowed to be leaders.

I think the logic is that Transwomen are women and transgirls are girls, but gender NC females are wrong.
Or maybe, just “women are wrong”.

There are no issues with non-conforming women or girls being asked to leave.

Women who don't "hold the identity of woman" are not allowed to be leaders. There was a very sad post a while back from a leader whose fellow leader had felt she no longer identifies as a woman, had a mastectomy, was told she couldn't be a leader, so had come on camp as a Unit Helper (a role open to men), had to sleep in a single tent and was using the men's loos (which made the male helpers uncomfortable).
So it's happening.

Katie
I didn't know that. That's dreadful.

Why would a woman who didnt want to identify as a woman join a female organisation. There was none of this stuff when I was growing up. I loathed guides only joined becsuse that's what you did after brownies. Didn't stay long.

@KatieAlcock

Women who don't "hold the identity of woman" are not allowed to be leaders. There was a very sad post a while back from a leader whose fellow leader had felt she no longer identifies as a woman, had a mastectomy, was told she couldn't be a leader, so had come on camp as a Unit Helper (a role open to men), had to sleep in a single tent and was using the men's loos (which made the male helpers uncomfortable). So it's happening.

Are you absolutely kidding me. Just when you think it can't get any more mad. So sad.

@Viviennemary

Why would a woman who didnt want to identify as a woman join a female organisation. There was none of this stuff when I was growing up. I loathed guides only joined becsuse that's what you did after brownies. Didn't stay long.

Well, to answer that, I'd need to know what specifically you mean by "identifying as a woman" and "female organisation". Could you talk through how you define those?

Why would a woman who didnt want to identify as a woman join a female organisation
Well, as a basic, because she's female, but this does show a lack of understanding of trans issues as they play out currently.
GG is a very good and friendly home for gender-non-conforming and neuro diverse and just generally not fitting in type girls.
Many of these are likely to make friends at Guides where they find it hard otherwise. They often wobble in their gender identity and either transition and detransition, or wish to keep their friends even though they are firm that they are not a girl or woman.
Girls don't magically become non-vulnerable as they reach 18 either.
Oh and then there are the 90% plus of women who don't identify with gender stereotypes and won't agree to say blindly in a robot voice I IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN CALL ME C*S.

Thing is, if the GRA review is abandoned and self-ID is dead in the water and the Equality Act remains (i.e the current legal situation) all these inclusion policies anticipating this change must be wide open for challenge. There is nothing underpinning them.
GG could be spending money defending an indefensible position. If a child cannot legally be 'trans' and single sex exclusion is legal this all goes away.

Well exactly @Beamur their policy is as without foundation and open to risk as saying adult men who identify as a 6 year old girl can become a member. They are so screwed.