Update on my case, and on exactly how much Girlguiding is spending of their money

[KatieAlcock]

As a charity. On fighting a volunteer concerned about safeguarding who doesn't believe in inner gender essence.

The explanation is in the next post because it's long and tedious but the answer is "at least £35,000 and probably more like £100,000".

If I had a daughter in GG I'd be removing her. Not for the cost of this case which is bad enough but for the reason Katie is taking them to court.

I think it's right that you are not being allowed to inflict your prejudices on the GG association in a personal vendetta against trans people.

@Saxa23

That’s probably fair to say Honey, maybe I am just pissed at such a statement made by op can be damaging when it hits something like the DM, exaggerated even more so , and then Flossies mum and pals kick off at her leader and decides she’s not paying subs. OP can fight her case without it. Totally.

@Saxa23, if you are pissed, it's probably best not to post on an open forum. The rest of your post doesn't make much sense. Put the alcohol down and sleep your excessive consumption off. After all tomorrow is another day.

The only people tearing down GGUK is GGUK - when they got confused about what an adult human female and a human female child were, and put in place a hugely discriminatory and dangerous policy that breaches the EQA. Katie had done absolutely nothing wrong. All she did was put herself on the line in defence of her Brownies.

For sure, but then surely the onus is on GGUK and their PR boss to think about how this case looks. I support this case and I think it's important GGUK try to defend their position because the only way this will stop is if they are told to stop. Otherwise they'll just keep being pushed towards mixed sex and won't be able to say no. I want the courts to say no, so GGUK can say no. I want the EA exemptions to be used because of the unique environment GGUK provides young girls as illustrated by pp. Scouting is mixed sex already and readily available to join instead.

I just find it frustrating that they would spend 5 times what Katie did, on minor technical points that they didn't even win. I mean, FFS.

I also agree with pp that it may be difficult to collect census in the next year. When we open again, we're going to have to alternate weeks as we run our meetings (R, B, and G) on same evening, with time overlaps. We can't ask parents for full subs for half the meetings.

@MindTheMinotaur I’m so sorry to hear you experienced this

I think you should consider contacting the police and reporting this to ceops as a historical abuse case. It just isn’t good enough for the organisation to say they can’t investigate this.

Bumping, placemarking, etc

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Was gguk for nearly 20 yrs. Now active in my adopted country. I really hope you win this.

Where are you now? (Curious, as many WAGGGS western countries are deifying gender, despite the fact that biology will get you killed or subject to discrimination or substantial educational and healthcare disadvantage in others.)

@Viviennemary

I think it's right that you are not being allowed to inflict your prejudices on the GG association in a personal vendetta against trans people.

Just remember you said that when the GG thing escalates.

There are lots of things wrong with this, but if you can't take in the subtler stuff just consider that they plan to have mixed sex sleeping/showering on any trips and everyone is forbidden to tell the parents.

if there was an assault they'd be complicit.

I thought this thread had been deleted? Or have you started other threads on the same subject @KatieAlcock

It's another thread about the same old thing.

Why are you trying to police other people posting about their experiences? Di somebody put you in charge of MN?

It looks to me, as a complete legal ignoramus, that GGUK is spending in such an OTT way to try to frighten Katie into dropping the case out of fear of having to pay the other party's legal fees.

I would be interested in what legal experts have to say on this matter.

Thank you Katie. It must be so stressful.
I guess doing the right thing is what girlguiding is meant to be all about.
Will do some more digging when I find the hole!

It looks to me, as a complete legal ignoramus, that GGUK is spending in such an OTT way to try to frighten Katie into dropping the case out of fear of having to pay the other party's legal fees. I would be interested in what legal experts have to say on this matter.

Me too. Surely it can't be legal to do this - it's clearly intended to intimidate. And, as Katie has shown, so many lawyers was not needed. Surely you can't just spend 10x the needed costs as an intimidation tactic?.

It's David and Goliath for sure.

Using attrition as a litigation strategy is well known. It's risky because it depends on the judge, some judges are a bit rubbish and the offending side can get away with it while other judges, more conscientious and aware, will penalise such an abuse of process.

There have been a number of sackings and high profile deplatforming, much of it involving persons who are GC. Insurers representing institutions and employers - universities, bodies like GGUK - will be aware, and hopefully alarmed that many of these institutions have adopted policies that discriminate against fundamental beliefs, breach the EQA and indirectly discriminate against other sections of society protected by the EQA; e.g., Muslim girls being excluded from Guides because of the presence of the male bodied. Maya's and Katie's case could result in the floodgates opening. Insurers will be doing everything they can to squash these cases before they get to trial. That's why I will be digging deep and hopefully others will too to keep these cases going.

Thank you Katie. I know there will be lots of people willing to help. I will look up your crowd funder again soon.

Mnhq said above they had closed this thread to consider something. It seems to be open again even if other threads have gone. The fact that it has generated complaints shows that people understand how important it is. Take courage you have lots of support.

Katie has posted a number of times about her case, yet these threads have been fairly quiet and populated by FWR regulars in the main. Then, on the day she posts about a court hearing earlier in the week, her thread is flooded with complainants. Why (and from where) the sudden interest?

Even parents who disagree with the details of this case should agree with the decision receiving proper scrutiny.

It is extremely worrying for an organisation that deals with children to ignore safeguarding concerns, brush them under the carpet and get rid of people who raise them.

It is extremely important that safeguarding concerns are always reported and dealt with honestly and openly.

If parents haven’t been informed then this implies there is something to hide. Parents should be concerned about this, regardless of the details. Child protection is always the overriding concern. Always.

Interesting isn’t it? I typed out a massive reply on the other thread and it disappeared.
Amaaaaazing how many ‘women’ appear to yell about the temerity of someone fighting for a valuable sex-based safe space for girls to explore and grow, outwith the pressures of the male gaze or being subjected to stereotypical gender pressure because of their sex.

Saxa23 I understand your stated frustration- it’s hard to be a leader and harder than ever in current times with financial pressures on parents and extra legal stuff and conditions around meetings - but it’s out and out wrong to say subs aren’t bring used on HQ legal stuff. Don’t spread disinformation even if you think the thread will disincline people.

Most people will act as individuals on behalf of their individual children. I know I am, even though I stand with Katie on the importance of what she’s doing. I’ll pay double subs to her fundraising to have my voice heard at the same time my DC keep attending. Perhaps that’s hypocritical but I don’t want it to close down - I want GG to shore up its single sex status or publicly revoke it to mixed sex. Not this fucking back-door gender bullshit.

I’ve spent a while today deconstructing with my DD the TikTok message of empowered enlightened kids preaching JK Rowling is generally toxic and hates diversity. This stuff isn’t easy and GGUK are spending thousands of pounds of charity money defending something antithetical to their stated aims to avoid uncomfortable conversations.

It’s bollocks.

GirlGuiding as a space for empowering females - great. GirlGuiding being unable to define boundaries over ‘female’ - not great. Bad. Really bad.

I didn't see the other thread. Was it ion another board?

It is extremely worrying for an organisation that deals with children to ignore safeguarding concerns, brush them under the carpet and get rid of people who raise them.

This.

Given GG haven't been able to meet since March, their income must have taken a hammering.
Why aren't they looking to settle this with less fuss and expense?
Presumably staff are furloughed in the main?