Update on my case, and on exactly how much Girlguiding is spending of their money

[KatieAlcock]

As a charity. On fighting a volunteer concerned about safeguarding who doesn't believe in inner gender essence.

The explanation is in the next post because it's long and tedious but the answer is "at least £35,000 and probably more like £100,000".

Katie, congratulations on today's outcome. They gambled and lost. Your first victory.

I'm not at all shocked at the costs they're running up. I'm not a lawyer but I've had experience of being in your position. Even if the Guides win (and I don't think they will) I don't think as a private citizen they will be awarded maximum costs. This is something they pretend will happen in these David and Goliath cases to scare the bejaysus out of you but if there's merit in your case the judge is unlikely to want to penalise you for raising a valid issue and will take into account Girlguiding's decision to throw a shedful of money at the situation.

Should I be wrong and the worst happen we're here for you. You're not alone. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of us behind you and together we can raise the money you need.

Sending you loads of courage and strength to help you get through this. It must be dreadful. My heart goes out to you and all the other women taking this burden on. You're not alone.

Why aren't they looking to settle this with less fuss and expense?

Because if they do a U-turn it will be seen as an offence against the gender identity ideology and they'll be punished by very nasty people who wield a lot of power. They'll be worried they could end up on the same shitlist as JKR.

Thank you for doing this Katie. You are brave and mighty and right.

The annual census (the collation of current members and monetary contribution every Guide and leader has to pay to GGUK) was carried out and collected prior to lockdown. The "subs" are a separate amount that units collect every term to pay for activities. We will not demand subs unless we can run meetings and therefore have activities to pay for; but the annual census amount is a fixed sum, so if girls want to stay in our unit until things return to normal, they will have to pay this (as will we leaders have to pay, for the pleasure of volunteering to keep the Girl Guiding movement going).

@nauticant

Why aren't they looking to settle this with less fuss and expense?

Because if they do a U-turn it will be seen as an offence against the gender identity ideology and they'll be punished by very nasty people who wield a lot of power. They'll be worried they could end up on the same shitlist as JKR.

The alternative being squandering funds which could be much better spent... Fwiw I actually have a lot of time for GG and my DD attends and loves it. I haven't withdrawn her over this and don't intend to. But it is baffling that they have invested so much into this.

@nauticant

Why aren't they looking to settle this with less fuss and expense?

Because if they do a U-turn it will be seen as an offence against the gender identity ideology and they'll be punished by very nasty people who wield a lot of power. They'll be worried they could end up on the same shitlist as JKR.

And how much more will they lose if they persist in this madness? Girls will be withdrawn from the GG movement and I doubt they will be replaced by a load of boys/trans girls. If people want mixed sex there is the Scouts organisation which welcomes both.

And "welcome" is probably the wrong word - "open" to both is probably better. Both my DC have been through Beavers and are at Cubs, with male and female participants and leaders. The point is that people actively choose to join the mixed sex organisation, but that isn't right for everyone and they should also have a choice.

I very much doubt many Leaders, let alone parents are aware of this.

Like I said, if this is insurer driven, then they are not going to be looking at GGUK's beef with Katie alone. They will be looking at the wider implications for all the institutions they insure, who may have similar indirect discrimination claims made against them. A case like Maya's or Katie's may set a precedent that opens the floodgates for claims against all employers; on grounds of discrimination in respect of beliefs hitherto not deemed to have a protected status.

The annual census (the collation of current members and monetary contribution every Guide and leader has to pay to GGUK) was carried out and collected prior to lockdown. The "subs" are a separate amount that units collect every term to pay for activities
Most units use subs to pay for census. If they don't, they ask parents to pay a separate lump sum, or occasionally raise money through charitable donations, usually from the parents anyway.

Maybe not parents, Beamur , but IME, leaders are very much aware.

dial

It was on aibu

Not just aimed to intimidate by the costs but also number of lawyers -

It's as if they watched Erin brockovich and completely misunderstood the message about such tactics in that!

It's a trashy cheap way to behave actually - however much they're spending!

I'm from a long history of guiding and went right through guiding myself including being a leader for several years.

I'm thankful I'm not personally having to deal with this as a leader but am wholeheartedly supportive of @KatieAlcock in her endeavour if it's allowed could someone please pm me donation info? Unfortunately it won't be a huge amount but I'm thinking every bit helps?

I was also a victim of csa at home and similar to pp guiding was a safe haven for me, it should continue to be so because god knows there's sod all being done elsewhere to protect girls like we were!!

Hell its even just relaxing to be in an all female social space away from the male gaze!!

The subs for DD's unit are over £1,000pa

@Saxa23 "OP if you want support, you can’t go about spouting things you don’t actually know."

Oh the irony. This is the equivalent of #bekind - despite your "inside knowledgel you have failed to address where the funding for this is coming from if it isn't being (wholly or partly) funded by contributions from parents etc.

I don't know about other units, Katie, but we break it down for parents between census money and activity money (subs). We might spread the cost over the year, but it is a clear separate amount. You are right , though, the amount we have to ask for to cover the census is a lot more than we need to cover the costs of running the unit.

@MannymanMunroe I’m not sure I understand- are you saying the census money is paid somehow without parents contributing? Surely not - how would that work?

GG units ask for ‘subs’ per term. We pay up. Leaders of unite distribute funds to their bills as needed - hall hire, general ‘census’ overheads, activities & equipment.

My £30 a term pays in proportion a bit of everything.

Doesn’t it?

X-post Manny. No unit I’ve been associated with has ever done anything but ask for an amount per term - no breakdown of costs - and money on top for specific trips.

My DD won't be joining GG over this.

It's the deception and lying and safeguarding breaches that I can't get over.

To change from single sex to mixed sex and deliberately withhold that information from parents and girls - and not seek their consent (e.g. a change from single to mixed sex accommodation on trips). It's just unbelievably shady.

If you want mixed sex and single 'gender' (whatever that means), fine - be open about it, shout it from the rooftops. But they know that would cause their membership to dwindle. So they deceive and lie, knowing full well that for most people 'girl' means biological female. It's despicable.

Yes, @NoSquirrels, most units operate like that. It's rare to charge parents a separate lump sum. It's also rare for leaders to pay their own census - as a unit in a university town, I couldn't ask student leaders to pay for volunteering and it's not something GG expect either.

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

dial

It was on aibu

Thanks Rufus. I do look at other boards but must have got my timings wrong on that one.

I was an assistant at a unit once that had trouble getting parents to pay census. Far too busy and important to write us a cheque. We got so fed up on chasing it for months on end whilst running short as we'd had to use unit funds to pay it, we just increased the cost of subs to cover it and stopped asking for it on top. Of course the amount changes every year but as our outgoings were quite low we could cover the rise for a few years before needing to put subs up again.

(Fwiw we did have provisions for families in financial hardship but no-one ever wanted the help)

Sorry for not being clear. Yes, the termly amount we charge our parents includes all the costs you list, including the census charge. I just break it down in my head between "true subs" (hire costs and expenses for activities), which I have some control over and which I have to ensure involves value for money for the parents; and the census charge, over which I have no control and have no choice but to charge. Hope that makes sense! I was just trying to break it down that some of the money paid by parents goes to individual units and actually benefits the guides materially on a weekly basis; and some goes to GGUK to pay for all the things they need to pay for to administer the organisation.

If you want mixed sex and single 'gender' (whatever that means), fine - be open about it, shout it from the rooftops. But they know that would cause their membership to dwindle. So they deceive and lie, knowing full well that for most people 'girl' means biological female. It's despicable. exactly! So don't even have the courage of their supposed convictions!

If they're SO SURE they're right then why aren't they being public and open about it?! Because they know DAMN WELL it'd be the end of GG

No worries dial

I always seem to get to threads just before they go boom...and I’m only on page 1