Debbie Hayton's article for National Review

[moptophairshop]

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this article. It is intended for a US audience but I found it interesting to hear a trans woman's point of view.
"While transgender people can and should be able to live our lives in peace, as a minority in need of accommodation, we need to fit in with society and not have society revolve around us."

www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/britain-comes-close-to-defeating-trans-overreach/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[ThePurported]

My first attempt at starting a thread for trans widows only got 14 replies, and none of them were from trans widows!

Really Tinsel?
I am so glad you carried on regardless

I don't cry easily, but when I saw Mrs Hayton in that documentary I bawled my eyes out.

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

I appreciate you posting this article OP. I might not have seen it otherwise.

[ThePurported]

Miranda especially, for me, should be acknowledged.

I feel a great deal of kinship with Miranda (nothing to do with 'gender'), and I remember fondly that time when he gave a bollocking to the transsexuals who, after having that 'ally' letter published in the Times, turned up here with their demands, but I think he would cringe at the idea of women demanding acknowledgement from other women on his behalf.

[forsucksfake]

@cosycatsocks I agree.

If the trans-identitying like Dr Hayton really belief that society should not have to revolve around them, why ask for any legal fiction to accommodate for their paraphilia/dysphoria? Legal fiction that is ripe for the abuse that has led to the erosion of women's rights? But they cling to their "right" to that legal fiction, don't they?

[TinselAngel]

@Musto

Blimey. My "views" "endorsed" by a man. "Feeling validated."

Views are the things you see out of the window.

The idea of "validation" is trans language, means absolutely nothing to me.

I have no need of "endorsement". Whatever that means. What does it mean on a feminist board?

That's how your anecdote reads. You went to a meeting of women but spent most of it hanging out with a male, and one who provided a certain cachet by already being quite well known in that environment.

[Annasgirl]

@EmpressLangClegSpartacus 100% agree with your first point Empress.

[Fffffs]

Agree that Miranda def wouldn’t want any acknowledgement from women for using his male privilege to stand by women.

[EmpressLangClegSpartacus]

[quote Annasgirl]@EmpressLangClegSpartacus 100% agree with your first point Empress.[/quote]
Cheers Annasgirl.

[FloralBunting]

Compelled to apologise for wrong speak?

What utter shite. I'm as committed to free speech and association as anyone, but pointing out the importance of prioritizing women's voices in discussions about women's rights is not compelling anything. You decided to add a paean to Mirznda, which I might even agree with on a basic level, but suggesting that a thread that has actually been quite welcoming and un-recipe laden as compelling apologies because we didn't care to focus on a male trans person is bollocks.

[Musto]

Yup, two of OPs three posts have apologies at the end.

[CallarMorvern]

The OP did feel the need to offer an apology and a red faced emoji. I also would have fallen into the same trap, new to all this and I took that to be a reasonable article, I didn't know what had gone before or know that there was a Mrs Hayton. And whilst I understand having a man trying to win an arguement for us isn't the way to go. Possibly the only way to make people who think they are 'being kind' in supporting self ID etc is to hear from transwomen who are supportive of women's rights.
I do get the feeling here that some don't want trans people to exist. I just want them to have their own rights and spaces and not to take our identity or make us a subset of our own sex.
Also adopt watch and wait as the main approach to dealing with trans kids.

[TinselAngel]

Possibly the only way to make people who think they are 'being kind' in supporting self ID etc is to hear from transwomen who are supportive of women's rights.

Surely, like charity though, this begins at home?

[FloralBunting]

Musto, and it was responded with all of us saying chill, and explaining why it was a hot button and being perfectly welcoming.

Callar, no problem with trans people existing. Just not a fan of male trans people's voices being given such prominence in the fight for women's rights.

[SisterWendyBuckett]

Excellent read from Julia Long. Thanks for posting the link Tinsel.

I love the clarity Julia always brings - she makes me feel like blindfold is being taken off my eyes.

[TinselAngel]

@SisterWendyBuckett

Excellent read from Julia Long. Thanks for posting the link Tinsel.

I love the clarity Julia always brings - she makes me feel like blindfold is being taken off my eyes.

She is exceptionally clear sighted, isn't she?

[Datun]

@SisterWendyBuckett

Excellent read from Julia Long. Thanks for posting the link Tinsel.

I love the clarity Julia always brings - she makes me feel like blindfold is being taken off my eyes.

That's a brilliant way of putting it.

[CallarMorvern]

TinselAngel

As in, transwomen who are supportive of women's rights should stand up and be counted as such within the trans/trans rights community?

Yes, I've said that in another thread.

[TinselAngel]

That simile has just made me think about how seeing Mrs Hayton in the Stella O Malley doc was like scales falling from my eyes.

[cosycatsocks]

But Debbie is not supportive of womens rights. Debbie just doesn't want the right to a legal lie removed, so they play nice. Debbie has admitted this!

[TinselAngel]

@CallarMorvern

TinselAngel

As in, transwomen who are supportive of women's rights should stand up and be counted as such within the trans/trans rights community?

Yes, I've said that in another thread.

No, that one should judge how supportive a person is of women's rights by first considering how that person treats the women in their own life.

[cosycatsocks]

Exactly @forsucksfake

[TinselAngel]

Sorry Callar I also agree with what you are saying but it isn't the point I was (hamfistedly) trying to make.

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

I think in my first post I called everyone 'folk'.

Which went down well.

Welcome, OP.

I still find the voices of transwomen pertinent and useful, and am happy to have the voices of people like Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander etc included in the case for maintaining women's rights & single sex spaces.

I understand the reasons that others wish to focus on women and women's voices, but way back when, hearing people like Kristina Harrison speak made me listen precisely because they were transwomen. (Not because they were male; because they were of the group that was routinely said to be oppressed/attacked by radical feminists, yet here they were speaking up on behalf of that very group).

That for me really did give the lie to the idea that organisations like 'A Woman's Place' were transphobic.

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

I also completely agree with Empress on page one. Can't imagine it happening, though, can you? Part of the wokebro's schtick is that I never see them actually talking to or addressing transwomen. Imagine seeing them say ' hey, I'd welcome you, I'd have your back, I'm happy to pee next to you'? I can't.