Debbie Hayton's article for National Review

[moptophairshop]

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this article. It is intended for a US audience but I found it interesting to hear a trans woman's point of view.
"While transgender people can and should be able to live our lives in peace, as a minority in need of accommodation, we need to fit in with society and not have society revolve around us."

www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/britain-comes-close-to-defeating-trans-overreach/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hi DialSquare, yes we did! That's exactly what I'm going to do now, read, read and read. Its helped having the links above to start off with.
I also don't buy into the 'just be nice' viewpoint but clearly it runs so much deeper than that.
Off to start reading now!

dial and moptop

Please don't be put off!

It's aaaall good 😁

Please don't assume Hayton's views are in any way typical of those of trans women.

I don't think anybody, including the OP would think that. What a lot of us are interested in on this feminist board though, is outcomes for women and girls.

We try to spend more time focussing on the importance of sex based rights and safeguarding, rather than analysing the similarities and differences between the views of various trans people.

Moptop

Welcome!

Here for discussion/information - so please don’t remove your thread.

I agree with the other posters who have discussed/linked about the lack of trans widows/children voices and the NASUWT trans guidance that DH helped to write - which includes compelled pronouns, TW use of single sex facilities etc.

I think there was an article by Dr Julia Long about the effect of magnifying TW voices in GC feminism which I found very insightful.

Anyone got a link?

I also don't buy into the 'just be nice' viewpoint but clearly it runs so much deeper than that.
Off to start reading now!

Female socialisation is an utter, utter bastard.

Men using their male privilege to speak up in support of women is the bare minimum they should be doing, they just need to not speak on our behalf or about what we experience.

Yardley etc also have every right to speak up about how their experience of gender dysphoria is appropriated by the tra’s and to point out how the proposed changes don’t help trans people as well as voice the importance of the psychological approaches and slower transition period in place currently and the harm removing that would do. They are often pretty vocal about the cult like nature of tra’s, the mind control pushed on kids, the abuse detransitioners experience and other similar issues that are relevant to gc issues, as well as how they are never at risk in male facilities. Feminism shouldn’t centre men but we can have their support when it’s not trampling us. Yardley at least recognises that from what I’ve read before, as well as his acknowledgement that he has the luxury to choose to step back from the issue of fighting the tra’s, unlike us women. I don’t know how many other male voices in this are able to use their privilege to be allies without blurring the lines somewhere along the lines but it’s possible. I guess the thing is op if it’s the feminism board then it’s maybe not the right place for a males views on this, unless it’s a very specific way like Yardley or Hayden saying they are all good with male pronouns (which they’ve said numerous times on plenty social media platforms I’m sure so I think that complies with MN rules about misgendering). But if you are just coming to this all there’s certainly several males (transwomen) who have voiced that they don’t need access to women’s spaces, that they don’t care about pronouns, that they don’t experience transphobia and that people pretending they are female doesn’t meet their needs at all. It’s not a bad thing to look into their experiences to provide a bit of reality when the tra’s are shouting about how we are causing their actual death by not being nice and putting up like good women should, but the thing that really matters is what you (and other women) experience and know to be true and that doesn’t need any males opinion.

*Datum
*
No chance of me being put off. I'm fully entwined now! As well as reading, I've also been writing to my MP, writing to my council regarding some of their literature quoting gender instead of sex and spending quite a lot of money per month on crowd justice (without the extra tip of course!).

@ThinEndoftheWedge

Moptop

Welcome!

Here for discussion/information - so please don’t remove your thread.

I agree with the other posters who have discussed/linked about the lack of trans widows/children voices and the NASUWT trans guidance that DH helped to write - which includes compelled pronouns, TW use of single sex facilities etc.

I think there was an article by Dr Julia Long about the effect of magnifying TW voices in GC feminism which I found very insightful.

Anyone got a link?

Was it this one?

uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/

Moptop, the best thing about this is that you've got the inevitable getting-your-arse-handed-you FWR baptism of fire out of the way now, and it was really fluffy in context, so we cool. Don't get your thread deleted. We are really not about erasing stuff here.

And actually, you've hit upon a really important feminist point wrt to prioritizing female voices in their struggle to retain rights. That's important, and it really can take ages to get to that point.

@DialSquare

*Datum * No chance of me being put off. I'm fully entwined now! As well as reading, I've also been writing to my MP, writing to my council regarding some of their literature quoting gender instead of sex and spending quite a lot of money per month on crowd justice (without the extra tip of course!).

Oh FFS! Fat fingers. Obviously that's was supposed to be Datun.

Welcome, Moptop & DialSquare! It’s great to have you both on board.

I think my first post on here, with my heart beating furiously, was um, ok, but what's a breast binder?

The entire concept had never even occurred to me.

Floral. I think over the last couple of years we discovered a nest of vipers can be quite effective

@Datun

I think my first post on here, with my heart beating furiously, was um, ok, but what's a breast binder?

The entire concept had never even occurred to me.

My first attempt at starting a thread for trans widows only got 14 replies, and none of them were from trans widows!

Faint heart never won fair mumsnet...

@Datun

I think my first post on here, with my heart beating furiously, was um, ok, but what's a breast binder?

The entire concept had never even occurred to me.

And now look at you.....

Thanks for the welcome messages. It gives hope to us all that some of the very informed posters on here started like us!

@DialSquare

Thanks for the welcome messages. It gives hope to us all that some of the very informed posters on here started like us!

What you describe Musto regarding feeling validated when your views were endorsed by a male (no debate that's how Miranda identifies HQ), is exactly what we have been talking about.

Tinsel yes thanks.

I meant to add that I think having TW stating TWAM is important.

Completely agree with Empress on page 1.

@SirVixofVixHall

Completely agree with Empress on page 1.

Couldn't give a fig what Debbie thinks.The GRA needs to be rolled back in its entirety.