Owen Jones says 57% of women support Self ID

[Justhadathought]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/16/right-power-victim-britain-media-no-10-millennials-twitter

I'd be really interested to know how this figure of 57% is assessed?
Since there is absolutely no chance of the general public ever having been asked if they support Self ID, let alone know what on earth it is, nor what it implies. Goodness knows...neither do most social commentators or even MPS.

Times poll results (looks like a different poll at roughly same time as PN one)

One of the questions is the same one PN asked in 2018. The amount of people agreeing, which was tiny then, has gone down to 16% who think people should be able to change legal sex status without a doctors approval.

Also the Times poll found that:

YouGov’s findings suggest that Britons draw a distinction between legal recognition and the freedom of transgender people to choose their own gender. Forty per cent agreed with the statement “a transgender woman is a woman” while 36 per cent disagreed. More people supported than opposed trans people’s right in principle to access to single-sex spaces, but this was reversed when asked whether this should apply to those who have not had gender reassignment surgery.

Proving that people do mostly think of trans people as those who have had "bottom surgery". And that they don't want penises in female spaces.

I think they must be different polls, even though they were both carried out by YouGov. The first one was carried out on behalf of Pink News. I'm not sure who commissioned the one reported in The Times. There's a big difference between the 28% supporting self-ID in the Times and the 57% supporting it in the Pink News poll.

The problem is that this is not an issue that most people understand, and so a lot depends on the way you frame the question. That's true of all polls, of course, but particularly true when it comes to self-ID, which isn't an easy topic to explain.

What's interesting for me is that even if the Pink News poll were right, it wouldn't change anything. Obviously OJ is too dim to understand this, but you can't put into effect a change in law that will affect all women when only 57% support it. You would still have a substantial minority of women who will be horrified at the thought of having to share changing rooms with men, or having their elderly mother's intimate care carried out by a man, or having men compete in women's sports, even if those men have legally identified as female.

And I think those of us who feel like that feel strongly enough that we will fight to the bitter end to stop it from happening. If I were the mother of a teenage girl, for example, there is absolutely no way I would allow her to go to a school where boys were allowed in the PE changing room. There are thousands and thousands of us who feel the same way.

I wonder if he asked this woman , the fragrant Julie.

Which kind of woman did he ask? Did he ask the women who are the bog standard kind of women everyone ignores, threatens or cancels if they don't agree to Self ID? Or the 'other' kind of women who get to make all the demands of the former?

How the fuck would he know as he blocks all women that don’t kowtow to his superior intelligence?

A lesson on the art of asking leading questions by Sir Humphrey

I'd forgotten just how much I loved that series. So, so smart. I wonder if OJ has ever seen it?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also the Times poll found that:

YouGov’s findings suggest that Britons draw a distinction between legal recognition and the freedom of transgender people to choose their own gender. Forty per cent agreed with the statement “a transgender woman is a woman” while 36 per cent disagreed. More people supported than opposed trans people’s right in principle to access to single-sex spaces, but this was reversed when asked whether this should apply to those who have not had gender reassignment surgery.

Proving that people do mostly think of trans people as those who have had "bottom surgery". And that they don't want penises in female spaces.

YY - based on conversations I've had, I'd categorise the general public's view as "transwomen who have 'gone all the way' are honorary women, (except for relationship purposes)."

And I've said it many times, but males calling other males 'girls' for not meeting standards of masculinity isn't new, so I can see why it makes sense to some men that men without penises must be women.

New sexism is just like the old sexism.

Oh how dare those silly women have a opinion that differs from here. They must be stupid or he must be lying.

🙄

It's the Pink News/ YouGov poll.

Quelle surprise!

Yeah, truly indicative of the opinion of half the entire UK demographic.

To think that I once had some common ground with OJ, particularly in terms of some of his views on economics. That was before I realised what a raging woman-hater, immature twat and flouncer he was.

MintyMabel, you have got this one entirely wrong unsurprising

Read the thread please. And look at the Times poll, done at the same time. The Pink News poll isn't even particularly convincing in and of itself as evidence for bringing in self ID. The answer for people as a whole is that exactly half of them are in favour of the wishy washy idea of "identifying as a different gender" as PN defined it. Not exactly groundbreaking stuff.

It says nothing about whether they are also in favour of trans people being able to change documents or access the spaces of the opposite sex. And other polls show that people aren't.

The Marxist theory of cultural hegemony associated particularly with Antonio Gramsci, is the idea that the ruling class can manipulate the value system and mores of a society, so that their view becomes the world view. Gramsci normally uses the word hegemony to mean the ways in which a governing powerwins consent to its rule from those it subjugates. In contrast toauthoritarian rule cultural hegemony is hegemonic only if those affected by it also consent to it

What does he plan to do with the 43% who aren't? We know the answer. Women are losing access to the services that as tax payers they pay for, because their services are refocusing to centre and prioritise males. Who can select freely from all the services, provisions and spaces to fit their best happiness and sense of self. While women in dire straits are being left, right now, with no services of any kind. Many with protected characteristics, many from vulnerable and already marginalised groups. They don't get to opt anywhere else and apparently Jones and many others give no fucks about their happiness or even their basic human right to provision and space.

This affects half the population of the country directly. Lets have a referendum, Jones. Time to equally state cases before hand, fair vote. Third spaces so trans people's needs are fully recognised and met - because no one with basic morals and decency who isn't a fucking sociopath would want to ever see another human excluded and without services they could access - or female people erased in language and law, and all spaces thrown open to males for their better freedoms and happiness with females allowed to have the bits left over so long as they're good girls who put males first.

Open to all voters. Lets see the results.

And I think those of us who feel like that feel strongly enough that we will fight to the bitter end to stop it from happening. If I were the mother of a teenage girl, for example, there is absolutely no way I would allow her to go to a school where boys were allowed in the PE changing room. There are thousands and thousands of us who feel the same way.

👍Yes, and this is what keeps me going.

Quite an interesting article that appeared in 'The Global Policy forum' discussing and explaining the concept of cultural imperialism in the 20C:www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/154/25597.html

"The principle target of cultural imperialism is the political and economic exploitation of youth. Imperial entertainment and advertisement target young people who are most vulnerable to U.S. commercial propaganda. The message is simple and direct: 'modernity' in associated with consuming U.S. media products"

www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/154/25597.html ( link should now work)

Even with public awareness low and very carefully worded questions they can only get just over half of women to agree, so what does Owen think is going to happen as public awareness rises and when the questions the public is asked are clearer and more direct? Thus the push now, before it becomes even more difficult to garner anything that looks like it might almost be public agreement if you're not really paying attention?

Drafting a letter to the Guardian now. No doubt it'll be rejected, but yer gotta try...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They and Owen keep pushing this poll. Don't fall for it. In 2018 Pink News asked a different question about self ID which clearly referred to what was meant, ie changing legal identity documents without a doctors approval.

The result was that only 18% of the population were in favour. They didn't make that mistake again (and they scrubbed all mention of that poll from their site), the next two times they asked the vague question of whether people felt people should be able to identify as a gender other than their sex. Something which most people here would agree with, provided it didn't change their legal sex.

As pp have said, the Wings over Scotland link clearly explains this.

This.

The survey just asked if people should be allowed to ID as they like. I'm surprised the numbers disagreeing are that high, in context.

I completely agree that people should be able to identify as they like. It's something that should be axiomatic, in fact.

That's light years from thinking that their self ID should be all that's necessary to create a binding legal fiction, with serious consequences for women.

The one is their right in a free society. The other impacts other people's rights in a free society.

Even with public awareness low and very carefully worded questions they can only get just over half of women to agree

And when you consider the sample of both men and women (ie the full weighted sample) it's only half of the people who agree. 50%.

And that has gone down over the last year. Hardly a ringing endorsement even for the vague idea of identifying "as a different gender" with no specified consequences to that.

Here's a previous thread discussing the PinkNews poll:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3964995--57-of-women-support-self-ID

It's propaganda, and very obviously so. The solitary question did not seek people's opinion on changing legal access rights on the basis of self-ID. Instead the question asked if people should be able to decide for themselves which sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes they wish to conform to.

Only 50% overall said yes to that. Which is a concern. And because the stereotypes society imposes on women on the basis of their sex is far more restrictive than for men, it's hardly surprising that more women said yes, we should be able to reject these stereotypes.

I completely agree that people should be able to identify as they like. It's something that should be axiomatic, in fact.

That's light years from thinking that their self ID should be all that's necessary to create a binding legal fiction, with serious consequences for women.

The one is their right in a free society. The other impacts other people's rights in a free society.

YY. Exactly this.

I wonder what he has to say about this:

twitter.com/yougov/status/1283703342598893568?s=21