Owen Jones says 57% of women support Self ID

[Justhadathought]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/16/right-power-victim-britain-media-no-10-millennials-twitter

I'd be really interested to know how this figure of 57% is assessed?
Since there is absolutely no chance of the general public ever having been asked if they support Self ID, let alone know what on earth it is, nor what it implies. Goodness knows...neither do most social commentators or even MPS.

It seems significantly less than 57% of women support Owen Jones, based on my comparably scientific methodology of reading Mumsnet.

The survey just asked if people should be allowed to ID as they like. I'm surprised the numbers disagreeing are that high, in context.

And if that literally just meant what it sounds like it means if you haven't been paying attention, which is that if someone wants to call themselves by a different name or say they're a man/woman or even identify as a potted plant then they should be allowed to do so, provided it has no real impact on the lives of others. It's when you realize that the last part is most definitely not the case that people go from "sure, whatever, none of my business anyway" to "oh no you don't, mate".

Very few people understand the issue and what it means in reality, especially when they are fed misleading survey questions.

Well, presumably the women he asked were those with penises!!!

I'm sorry I couldn't get past the title "Playing the victim"? Is he having a laugh, he's the bloody expert at that!

With regards to self ID, the point is is makes a total mockery of the question doesn't it? If anyone can identify as a woman then we don't know who hes asking.

As a leftie, I’m so unbelievably disappointed in Owen Jones and Billy Bragg. For socialists they’re ridiculously out of touch with average people. Also, you can influence a poll to a particular outcome depending on how the question is framed. If I was asked solely about the right to identify as whatever, I’d agree. However when we get into the issue of legal self id, where it crosses into legislation, is another ball game altogether. Many people think they are only supporting people wearing a frock and don’t understand the potential legal ramifications.

That YouGov poll is very interesting. With the question 'Should transwomen use womens changing facilities, women say yes but men say no. (I can't se the percentages) Men know men.

The last bit of RealMcKenna's link demonstrates what we've been saying here for years, which is that to the extent that most people support transwomen being allowed into women's spaces such as toilets and changing rooms it's because they think "transwoman" means "no longer has a penis or testicles". Most people absolutely do not support penis and testicle having individuals in women's spaces, it's just that they've been misled into thinking that's not what they're getting when they agree to grant transwomen access to those spaces.

Owen Jones is generating more revenue for the guardian through clickbait then.

Thats the Guardian and PinkNews income model. Clickbait.

I’m pretty sure significantly more than 57% of women are sick of a jumped up little man telling them what to think.

His ‘young and progressive’ argument is tired, too. He’s 35 and writes for the Guardian. He doesn’t speak for the working class youth.

I wonder if he knows anyone from the working class - well not if he's a member of the Labour Party he wont

It's interesting because I'm pretty sure the cultural shift he's talking about where being a "victim" means you've won the argument has been almost entirely driven by the woke left.

Of course the right wing do it too! But they didn't invent this game. It's pure projection on Talcum's part. He even says that using the term "crybully" is "playing the victim." How can you write something like that, without taking a long hard look at yourself and wondering if, in some small ways, you might be part of the problem?

Also maybe shouldn't even mention that line about "coming out" but realistically, I am quite certain that there some subcultures and workplaces exist where "coming out" as a Tory is much harder than "coming out" as gay. OJ probably works in one. Maybe it's not right to co-opt the term but when it's already been co-opted by people "coming out as nonbinary" (to universal shrugging) it's a bit late to complain that people with unfashionable political beliefs can't claim it.

TheProdigalKittensReturn exactly. The vast majority of what I’d call ‘low information voters’ believe that a ‘certified‘ trans woman Is someone who has lived as a woman and gone through multiple medical procedures and hormone treatment. They see no objection to their ‘idea’ of a trans woman having access to women’s spaces.

Maybe if they asked using ye olde wording ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’ then the answers would differ.

Maybe if they asked using ye olde wording ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’ then the answers would differ.

I'm betting they would. And I think the problem here is one of distinction; one which wasn't much being made before this issue was given sunlight (I know it wasn't by me). Another problem is that transsexuals who refer to themselves using this term, and who actually prefer it, are constantly invalidated by aggressive transgender activism which insists others identify themselves in ways it dictates. Same goes for those pesky 'people with vaginas' or those who persist in asking not to be misgendered as 'cis'.

I have an acquaintance who is an old-school post-operative transsexual. She uses the word 'transsexual', along with a female name, knows she isn't a biological name, and happens to be a gentle soul who has no desire whatsoever to stampede over women's sex-based rights. When I too championed trans rights (because it isn't hurting me and why don't we all live and let live?) this was the type of person I naively assumed was being talked about here.

She is the kind of person the ugly movement of TRA would pleasantly refer to as 'truscum'.

sorry - above should read knows she isn't a biological FEMALE.

Here is the poll. Look how the answers change when lack of surgery is mentioned. And there is no agreement that changing legal 'gender' should be made easier.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

When I was campaigning to get people to fill in the GRA consultation, virtually every person I spoke to assumed that transwomen had no male genitalia, almost as if it was the criterion for being considered trans. Most people have no idea how wide the trans umbrella is.

I was on a long phone call between starting and finishing that post so just cross posted!

I honestly think the portrayal of Hayley on Coronation Street has affected what many people think of as a "transwoman". And I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid in thinking that it could have been part of a long term plan - why was this character played by a woman? It's a programme that has massive reach and influence, and the transwoman character is indistinguishable from a "real" woman, because she is played by a woman. And becomes a very popular character as she is kind, caring, sees the good in everyone, gentle, unassuming. So if people in surveys are picturing someone like that and asked to share female-only spaces, it's not surprising that they go for the "be kind" option.

@Clymene

When I was campaigning to get people to fill in the GRA consultation, virtually every person I spoke to assumed that transwomen had no male genitalia, almost as if it was the criterion for being considered trans. Most people have no idea how wide the trans umbrella is.

I did until 2 years ago. I mean, people are still insisting Rowling is wrong that you can get a GRC without any medical intervention. Pink News said she was wrong (presumably because that's their go to argument on how unfair and awful the present process is) - a C4 Factcheck confirmed it.

People have no idea how wide the trans umbrella presently is. Part-time cross-dressers aren't a widely accepted definition of 'woman'.

Lol Owen Jones is older than me for chrissake.
So tired of the 'reducing women to biology so betraying feminism' arguement.
Saying I can't be an engineer because I have ovaries = sexism. A problem for feminists.
Saying I can't produce sperm because I have ovaries = reality. Not a problem for feminists.
Attributing the fact I make ova not sperm to me being worth less = sexism.
Saying because I'm geared up to make ova I can't change sex to the one that makes sperm = reality
Saying your sex defines your sex = reality
Saying your sex defines your gender = sexism
Saying your sex defines your worth = sexism
Saying your gender defines your worth = just stupid

I also hate the 'same tropes used against homosexuals' arguement. I'm not aware of homophobes debunking myths around DSDs, explaining that black women weren't men and that humans weren't clownfish, asking for evidence regarding medically or surgically altering healthy bodies, or oh yes sticking up for same sex attraction.
I've said before if gays and lesbians had argued that sex was a spectrum and women could have penises and men could have vaginas so really they were heterosexual so couldn't be discriminated against and it was bigoted for heterosexual men to exclude people with penises as sexual partners the last fifty years would have gone very differently.

I honestly think the portrayal of Hayley on Coronation Street has affected what many people think of as a "transwoman".

I completely agree with this. I was little when Hayley first appeared on Corrie, and for years she was my idea of what a transsexual woman was. Basically, identical to an actual women... Because she was played by a woman...

Owen Jones here responding to the newest poll. He dislikes women of course, but he has a real contempt for women who aren't young and therefore aren't quite as compliant to the bro biz. This isn't the first time he's pretty much said, "Women under 25 don't mind Self ID so..." It's like he thinks anyone over 25 is so monumentally old that he and his trans siblings can just wait a few years and we'll all be dead anyway, and then all the young people can get on with building the utopia. Wonder if he realises those women will age, have kids and learn they don't need to prioritise men in their feminism once they've got a bit of knowledge and life experience. He's 35 himself, ffs. A lot of us on here are younger than him.

stella47

I absolutely agree with you and have been saying the same thing for ages. To the average person who isn’t involved in feminist discourse, academia or Twitter, and who doesn’t know any trans people, the go to image of a transwoman is likely to be Hayley or maybe Caitlin Jenner.

Sorry Owen, women over 25 get to have a say in who comes in their spaces too