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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Guardian job cuts

405 replies

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 15/07/2020 15:11

twitter.com/ben_bt/status/1283351434717782016?s=19

A lot comments standing up for women. What was that phrase again, go woke.....?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/07/2020 14:23

If he's only talking to women who consider themselves "c*s" then I'm sure they agree with him already. It's the rest of us he's failing to convince.

Collidascope · 16/07/2020 14:29

Oh, that thread. And the grand entreaty to "please read it all." As though we haven't heard these clichés a thousand times before.
TWAW: check
TMAM: check
Compassion (obviously going one-way): check
Men are violent to trans women: check
Cis women: check
Debate has to start with acceptance of lie that TWAW: check
Talk to trans people, try to understand them (again, one-way. We know who the real women are when it comes to who has to do the understanding): check

IloveJKRowling · 16/07/2020 14:37

Talk to trans people and understand the reality of their identities; their difficulties and joys.

Ben, the answer is NO.

Ben, that entire twitter thread is women telling you the reality of their identities, their difficulties and joys and you're NOT LISTENING.

My joy is telling Ben to fuck off and I'm never ever giving the Guardian another penny. That will give me great joy.

The misogyny is strong in this one.

HandsOffMyRights · 16/07/2020 14:38

That new male ranty thread is priceless. What a NarCISsist.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/07/2020 14:43

Oh, he's the music editor? Definitely the ideal person to be educating others on how to best wipe out misogyny and ensure fair treatment for women, then.

Wondersense · 16/07/2020 14:52

@Ereshkigalangcleg@MoltenLasagne@Antibles

Me too! I read the few opinion articles that they published on the matter (late compared to other newspapers), and I thought 'Oh my God, I was right. They've actually gone ahead and basically published softy apology pieces for what happened.'

After that, I thought the Guardian is no longer a newspaper that really cares about women. It's all a front. As soon as something else comes along, they push women's right out if the way.

Wondersense · 16/07/2020 14:54

@MoltenLasagne @Antibles ^

Godwinshelley · 16/07/2020 15:40

gender "matches" with the one conferred on them by biology and society

So several hundred years of feminist writings and struggles down the pan there! The rejection of the societal conferring of a gender identity is the definition of the women's liberation movement

DianasLasso · 16/07/2020 15:46

Christ. I honestly prefer outright sexist old fashioned views to the modern Bens of the world.

Yup. At least you know exactly where you stand with the Gene Hunts of this world.

TheRealMcKenna · 16/07/2020 15:47

@Collidascope

Oh, that thread. And the grand entreaty to "please read it all." As though we haven't heard these clichés a thousand times before. TWAW: check TMAM: check Compassion (obviously going one-way): check Men are violent to trans women: check Cis women: check Debate has to start with acceptance of lie that TWAW: check Talk to trans people, try to understand them (again, one-way. We know who the real women are when it comes to who has to do the understanding): check
It’s like a new version of the Apostle’s Creed.
highame · 16/07/2020 15:54

I bet he wishes he was half as clever as you lot❤

dolorsit · 16/07/2020 16:22

Christ. I honestly prefer outright sexist old fashioned views to the modern Bens of the world.

I'd much rather argue with an old fashioned male chauvinist than with a left wing feminist male. The chauvinist will argue his point of view.

The male feminist will get upset that you are disagreeing with him because he's a feminist and if you don't agree with him you are saying he's not a feminist.# The argument becomes all about him and how he feels.

of course he can't comprehend that feminists have been arguing amongst since the very start (because it's not a cult) because we're women and are meant to be nice and sisterly.

dolorsit · 16/07/2020 16:22

Christ. I honestly prefer outright sexist old fashioned views to the modern Bens of the world.

I'd much rather argue with an old fashioned male chauvinist than with a left wing feminist male. The chauvinist will argue his point of view.

The male feminist will get upset that you are disagreeing with him because he's a feminist and if you don't agree with him you are saying he's not a feminist.# The argument becomes all about him and how he feels.

of course he can't comprehend that feminists have been arguing amongst since the very start (because it's not a cult) because we're women and are meant to be nice and sisterly.

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 16/07/2020 16:24

Spot on, dolorsit.

Apileofballyhoo · 16/07/2020 16:26

@justanotherneighinparadise

It’s a mantra. If you state with a #nodebate statement you are trying to enshrine it into Twitter law, perhaps in the hope no one will argue the point thereafter.

Why do I keep seeing zero TRA responses in these massive GC threads? Where are they all?

Maybe they don't actually read newspapers.
MummBraTheEverLeaking · 16/07/2020 16:33

Oh, Ben. He is getting his arse handed to him in the latest tweet comments and rightly so. It's all me me me and my hurty feels from the nasty mean women, why won't they just be nice? 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
Kantastic · 16/07/2020 16:41

Is this the new line from woke mansplainers?

*Well, I don't know the answer or indeed anything about this topic - look how I magnanimously admit this! - but I'm sure there must be a compromise available and if you'd all be a bit more nice and reasonable we could work out what that compromise ought to be."

Glen Greenwald was using a similar line yesterday. Benighted sexism that it is, I think it may actually be progress. It's a good thing that some mansplainers on this issue have evolved to the point of admitting that they don't know what they're talking about. Perhaps one day they will reach the point where they can resist the urge to mansplain anyway despite these faint dawnings of self-awareness. And then after that... maybe they could listen to what women are saying? Probably the heat death of the sun will occur first - but credit where it's due for Ben and Glenn's faint glimmerings of consciousness.

SenselessUbiquity · 16/07/2020 16:50

I was a teenager in the 80s and I cut my feminist teeth on the Womens pages.
It's such a pity the paper is so bad now. Yes, there is this incredibly stupid constant wiffling on trans issues. It's not just the line they take that is so anti-GC voices - it's the way it's all about TRA stuff with the most tenuous of excuses. I really would love to see some analysis about the percentage of trans related content relative to the proportion of trans people in the population. They are so excited to be all about the trans, it's kind of creepy.

But it's not just that. They hammered Corbyn. Say what you like about him, he won the leadership of the labour party - twice. And he was never given the tiniest fucking chance. Sure, the RW media were never going to - but he was relentlessly smeared by the Guardian too; and they have therefore substantially contributed to an 80 seat Tory majority. So an abominable lying incompetent shower are therefore running the country during a global pandemic and a fucking disastrous hard (no deal?) Brexit.

Maybe that's a minority view on here which feels a bit more centrist and Blairite, but the fact of the matter is that Corbyn was our only chance and the media killed his chances stone dead.

highame · 16/07/2020 16:50

can anyone link me to these faint glimmerings of consciousness. not great on twitter but would love to read. Read the first one from the OP's post

MrsNoah2020 · 16/07/2020 16:52

@dolorsit

Christ. I honestly prefer outright sexist old fashioned views to the modern Bens of the world.

I'd much rather argue with an old fashioned male chauvinist than with a left wing feminist male. The chauvinist will argue his point of view.

The male feminist will get upset that you are disagreeing with him because he's a feminist and if you don't agree with him you are saying he's not a feminist.# The argument becomes all about him and how he feels.

of course he can't comprehend that feminists have been arguing amongst since the very start (because it's not a cult) because we're women and are meant to be nice and sisterly.

Old fashioned chauvinists don't necessarily hate women. They are the beneficiaries of a world view that holds women to be inferior, and they don't like being reminded of the fact, but they aren't necessarily motivated by personal dislike of women: they just favour the status quo because it benefits them.

Woke bros, on the other hand, are fully aware of patriarchy and, on paper, opposed to it. But they don't really want to overturn it because, just like the old-fashioned chauvinists, they benefit from it. Dilemma. This means they have to find a whole other raft of excuses not to listen to women. In the good ole days pre-about 2005, this was a bit tricky - they had to rely on telling women that their rights were important, but not as important as black/gay/working-class people - we were going to get their full support just as soon as those priority issues were sorted. But then, What light on yonder window breaks? It is transgenderism, come to save woke men from the risk of one day having to centre women. Now they can support women: just the ones with penises, not those pesky ones with vaginas. Problem solved.

SenselessUbiquity · 16/07/2020 16:52

@Kantastic

Is this the new line from woke mansplainers?

*Well, I don't know the answer or indeed anything about this topic - look how I magnanimously admit this! - but I'm sure there must be a compromise available and if you'd all be a bit more nice and reasonable we could work out what that compromise ought to be."

Glen Greenwald was using a similar line yesterday. Benighted sexism that it is, I think it may actually be progress. It's a good thing that some mansplainers on this issue have evolved to the point of admitting that they don't know what they're talking about. Perhaps one day they will reach the point where they can resist the urge to mansplain anyway despite these faint dawnings of self-awareness. And then after that... maybe they could listen to what women are saying? Probably the heat death of the sun will occur first - but credit where it's due for Ben and Glenn's faint glimmerings of consciousness.

I agree - we are seeing a lot more of this "well I don't know but surely there are two sides..." - which is a significant shift

What they have forgotten, or more likely never clearly understood, is that the whole point is that there were not allowed to be two sides, as far as the TRA voices were concerned. It's interesting to see a sort of time lag with some TRA inflluenced voices still in their doubling down phase and others moving into their "well we've always been prepared to be reasonable" phase

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 16/07/2020 16:56

I was feeling grumpy so I just went and read some more comments on Ben's thread 😂.

CourtneyLurve · 16/07/2020 17:02

Oh my word - the twitter responses are making my day. Grin

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Siablue · 16/07/2020 17:15

All he needed to say to the criticism was I just write about bloody music! He must be quite vulnerable now the review section is going. He has really shafted his colleagues by digging that big hole.

Binterested · 16/07/2020 17:35

Twitter responses are 😍

As he’s the music critic I’m going with “The times they are a-changing”