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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 01:31

Lemonade on trans widows -

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 00:51:11
Not just in my experience, in the experience of dozens of women whose testimony is on this board

OK, but does my opinion not count just because there's a thread on here about trans widows?
I'm entitled to think that's a shitty way to think about your (general your) partner.
They're not dead. They're still alive. Not a widow.
As I said, hypothetical as not happened to me yet but if DH said was trans and I've been with since forever said was trans he'd still be him. Even if was now a her. Aware that probably doesn't make sense but I know what I'm saying lol

Lemonade on transgendered people -

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 21:44:54
how many times do I have to explain this!

It's like MBD said upthread. Some just don't want to try and listen, and will instead repeatedly tell you what you are or aren't. Have no intention of listening, I mean you couldn't be any clearer.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 22:51:36
Alex you just keep shutting down

Is there any bloody wonder?! grin
I'd be like flicking V's at the screen and sticking my tongue out at it if I was him, I just don't get how anyone tells someone else they're deluded, too young to know what they're doing, to embrace the body you're in (even when it's not "them!" )
Having your identity and right to "be" who you are discussed - just... must be shit.For lack of a better word!

It seems that one caste is allowed to name themselves and their experience. Another is not.

🤔

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:34

Oof, see you've conveniently missed off Tinsel's original question "how would you feel if your husband said he was to transition?" question in your little copy and paste exercise there?
That's half a story and edited.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:39

@alexk3 @MadBadDaddy
god there really is an xkcd for everything!
I'm scared to click, I don't "do" links that are just links Smile
What is it lol (again not lolling at people cos mutilating Hmm in case it needs pointing out)

alexk3 · 14/07/2020 01:40

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

ah it’s just a comic about not going to bed because you’re arguing with people on the internet lol (also just to clarify i am ‘lol’ing at the comic and not the future mutilation of my body)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 01:42

Lemonade

No, that's irrelevant to the fact that it's perfectly clear from your words that you knew about the trans widows and that Tinsel considers herself one, at the time you called the way they framed their experience of abusive relationships "shitty".

Perhaps an apology to Tinsel and any other trans widows reading might be in order?

Fearandsurprise · 14/07/2020 01:42

[quote alexk3]@Fearandsurprise

I’d rather people said ‘haha’ than banged on about how I’m ruining my body to be honest[/quote]
You are making what I am sure is a very difficult choice. But, you need to “own it”. For the sake of others who may be reading this who are considering doing the same, the facts of transition cannot be brushed under the carpet. It may give you the relief you desire, and I really hope it does, but there is a physical price to be paid and that needs to be talked about openly and honestly (to be clear: in a general way, not your specific personal medical details).

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:42

ah it’s just a comic about not going to bed because you’re arguing with people on the internet lol

Argh, can totally relate Grin

alexk3 · 14/07/2020 01:44

@Fearandsurprise

yes, but then the vast majority of people considering transition are going to research it extensively & then be told about it by whichever medical professional. Doesn’t really need to be gone over repeatedly on here when everyone knows it probably makes you sterile etc.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:44

Perhaps an apology to Tinsel and any other trans widows reading might be in order?

Oh FFS - shouldn't ask a sodding question if you don't want a sodding answer.
It was a very conviently editing post, I'll give the poster that. Fake News
The whole unedited version available on the thread still available

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:46

The poster being the cut and post master just now to be clear, not Tinsel in case it needs spelling out

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 01:50

The whole unedited version available on the thread still available

Yes, I've just read it again. And you're still calling the way women frame their relationship breakdown "shitty".

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 01:54

It was a very conviently editing post, I'll give the poster that. Fake News
The whole unedited version available on the thread still available

Only a copy and paste of your words and your attitude.

I didn’t need to edit, omit, or change anything at all. It’s all you.

And yes, it’s all still here, hence my copy and paste lol. Took maybe 5 minutes to collate.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 01:54

You forget, I copied and pasted the conversation with Tinsel at that point as well, before Humpty did

A question for Transmen and Transwomen
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:55

yes, but you're STILL missing off the question originally asked which I answered!

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 01:59

I haven't read the trans widows threads. I have heard of it though.
People who refer to themselves as widows as their partner has transitioned.
I did say when it was brought up it's a shitty way to think of your partner, as dead.
Before I knew I was supposed to know the ins and outs of every posters personal lives.
If you don't want to potentially hear different views, maybe don't post the question in the first place. I answered to the question to me what would I do or feel if my husband was to transition.

Fearandsurprise · 14/07/2020 02:00

[quote alexk3]@Fearandsurprise

yes, but then the vast majority of people considering transition are going to research it extensively & then be told about it by whichever medical professional. Doesn’t really need to be gone over repeatedly on here when everyone knows it probably makes you sterile etc.[/quote]
But throughout this discussion, we’re not talking about the “vast majority” of people. For example, the vast majority of people are not trans, but we still need to consider the needs of trans people. The “vast majority” of people considering transition might research it, but we need to consider those who have not, or those who do not have the ability to fully comprehend information when it is talked about it unclear terms.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:00

But for the avoidance of all doubt here is the screenshot. No one cares about the question Tinsel asked you that think is so critical, it was the way you spoke to Tinsel and dismissed other women's experiences of their relationship breakdowns that you know nothing about.

A question for Transmen and Transwomen
Fearandsurprise · 14/07/2020 02:02

@wellbehavedwomen

Alex I'm really tired so this may be incoherent and rambly, but I am going to try to explain this to you as it feels from this side - my side.

However I do think some GC things can be a bit reductive - the cervical cancer # in my opinion was just a bit mean.

See, here's the thing: some women are, and speak, Gujerati. It's very important, clearly, that they can access excellent medical care, and we need leaflets, translation services, and medics who understand the language and the cultural needs to see that that happens.

What we don't do is insist that all needs, for all women, should be framed so that they suit first and foremost the needs of Gujerati women. Nor are they aiming all medical materials around eg family planning to meet the cultural and social needs of observant Catholic, or Orthodox Jewish, or Muslim women above all else. When arranging breast screening advice, nobody stops and wonders if it's sensitive to phrase all literature for women who have already lost one or both breasts to cancer. (Bluntly, they're expected to woman up and get on with it, in that last case.) It's aimed at the wide average. It's aimed at the majority. We would hopefully have smaller leaflet runs, and training, to meet the needs of smaller minority subsets within that larger group, so their needs can be sensitively and respectfully met, too. You don't create a leaflet, though, for millions and millions of people, and a site directed at their needs, and frame the whole thing in a way that suits one specific minority. Especially if that makes millions of women feel dehumanised.

The only minority with the power to force all other areas affecting women's lives into pretzels, to serve that tiny minority, are led by people born with penises. I'm sorry, but this is part of a far wider assault on the language commonly and ordinarily used by women for generations, in order to define our lives and our experiences; the aim is to alter the definition and understanding of the very word 'woman' so it no longer refers to a sex class at all. At its core, what it is about is the very word 'woman' itself, as meaning a female person. It's an assault on the connection between sex and category, in order that people born male may claim it. And that is not in the interests of women born, if you consider oppression based on sex, and males to be the oppressors - which is very, very extensively evidenced. It erases women as a sex class. That's explicitly the end point aim, actually. To replace sex with gender identity. And that is a threat to women's capacity to defend our rights, if you believe oppression is based on sex. You've talked about men treating you poorly, and that sexism impacted you as soon as you left a single sex environment. Your gender identity hasn't determined your oppression, then, has it? Biology has.

You know how claiming to be colour blind is racist, because if you can't identify race as a factor, you can't name the racism either? Sexism and sex is the same. It matters, and therefore saying only female people - not even women; biologically female people - have cervixes should not be seen as hate speech. I find the erasure of women as a sex class more than upsetting, quite honestly. I find it alarming. Again, I totally respect the need to provide alternative literature and sensitive care to you. That shouldn't mean the care to all the rest of us, and our ability to define ourselves at all by our biology, is recast as hateful. It's essential to our defending ourselves from patriarchy. Because we can't defend what we can't define: the definition of woman matters. Asserting that definition matters.

I would completely support sensitive, thoughtful leaflets for trans men who need cervical smears, mammograms, and contraception, and I would also welcome training for practice staff on how to send reminders that respected the gender identity. Pain should never be caused wholly avoidably. But what about women's pain, in being dehumanised to the point that we are no longer allowed to define ourselves as a sex class - just a selection of body parts - especially when we believe naming that class is essential if we are to be able to assert our interests, as a group, and name our oppression?

Nobody, I hope, wanted to be mean to trans men with that one. It was a push back against the colonisation if women, as a definable group of people. A small minority of people born male seek to define what a woman is. To allow that would be, in my view, the ultimate in patriarchal oppression, quite honestly. It isn't okay for people who have lived from birth with male privilege to start demanding that women stop using perfectly ordinary, perfectly essential everyday language to determine who we are, solely so they can co-opt it. Woman is the word always used for us. It isn't okay to render the very word itself, in relation to our biology, and our health, and our liberation struggle, problematic, and only to be used in contexts male people have pre-approved.

It really, really is not about being hurtful to trans men.

Anyway, again, sorry this is so endlessly long and rambly. It's been a horrendously long day. I hope the general gist makes sense.

I agree.

And using unclear language does not help people who do not speak/read English fluently, or have temporary or permanent cognitive issues, for example. Their need to be able to understand information and access appropriate healthcare must be considered. It is “mean” to not do so.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:05

Oh FFS, actually read what I said,
You.
Are.
Still.
Conveniently.
Missing.
Off.
Original.
Question.

it was the way you spoke to Tinsel and dismissed other women's experiences of their relationship breakdowns that you know nothing about

Will just say this again
Before I knew I was supposed to know the ins and outs of every posters personal lives.
If you don't want to potentially hear different views, maybe don't post the question in the first place. I answered to the question to me what would I do or feel if my husband was to transition.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:05

Before I knew I was supposed to know the ins and outs of every posters personal lives.

You weren't. But it was made fairly clear before you said that that those experiences had not been easy. You answered, without any knowledge about that, based on your thoughts, but you then went further and dismissed other women's experiences by calling their name for themselves "shitty". And several pp picked up on it, and Tinsel called you out on it.

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 02:05

Reposted to add an unedited copy paste to include TinselAngel posts

TL:DR nothing’s changed.

Lemonade on trans widows -

TinselAngel Mon 13-Jul-20 00:00:12
I acknowledge the fact that even though trans people are biologically their sex, it doesn't stop me being able to accept them as what they identify as.

Would you accept it if it was your husband?

TinselAngel Mon 13-Jul-20 00:17:41
I'd like to think even though if he decided to transition at nearly 50 I'd still love him for who he was, as it's him I love and have done for the past 20 odd years.

That's not really how it happens- see the trans widows threads.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 00:51:11
Not just in my experience, in the experience of dozens of women whose testimony is on this board

OK, but does my opinion not count just because there's a thread on here about trans widows?
I'm entitled to think that's a shitty way to think about your (general your) partner.
They're not dead. They're still alive. Not a widow.
As I said, hypothetical as not happened to me yet but if DH said was trans and I've been with since forever said was trans he'd still be him. Even if was now a her. Aware that probably doesn't make sense but I know what I'm saying lol

Lemonade on transgendered people -

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 21:44:54
how many times do I have to explain this!

It's like MBD said upthread. Some just don't want to try and listen, and will instead repeatedly tell you what you are or aren't. Have no intention of listening, I mean you couldn't be any clearer.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains Mon 13-Jul-20 22:51:36
Alex you just keep shutting down

Is there any bloody wonder?! grin
I'd be like flicking V's at the screen and sticking my tongue out at it if I was him, I just don't get how anyone tells someone else they're deluded, too young to know what they're doing, to embrace the body you're in (even when it's not "them!" )
Having your identity and right to "be" who you are discussed - just... must be shit.For lack of a better word!

It seems that one caste is allowed to name themselves and their experience. Another is not. 🤔

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:06

You did know some of the details of their lives. Stop being so disingenuous.

alexk3 · 14/07/2020 02:10

@Fearandsurprise

really cannot imagine that situation but by all means add your voice to the 30 other people telling me the same thing

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:10

And using unclear language does not help people who do not speak/read English fluently, or have temporary or permanent cognitive issues, for example. Their need to be able to understand information and access appropriate healthcare must be considered. It is “mean” to not do so

Yes. I agree. It's prioritising the needs of a minority over a much wider group of women, in a way that isn't done with men and their issues.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:12

Having your identity and right to "be" who you are discussed - just... must be shit.For lack of a better word!

Yes, it must.

Not just in my experience, in the experience of dozens of women whose testimony is on this board

OK, but does my opinion not count just because there's a thread on here about trans widows?
I'm entitled to think that's a shitty way to think about your (general your) partner
They're not dead. They're still alive. Not a widow
Tinsel never said they were anything to do with the transwidows thread, just mentioned it. I'm entitled to my opinion.
I've looked - seems daft to ask a question if you don;t want anyone to disagree with you and form their own opinion.

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