A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

It would be crass to mention it if it were for paying members only

You what? Why not answer the question instead of talking in riddles lol
You said there was a quote function, I'm pointing out there actually isn't, unless you pay?
Unless we all have a quote function now? If so then fair enough but didn't know if so

People were saying I'd called you shitty - I was answering a question posed to me not you and I said I'd feel it shitty behaviour - before knowing that I was supposed to have a background knowledge of all people's personal lives before proffering opinions and "go read the trans widows threads, educate myself"

Lemonade

Please stop misrepresenting it. You directly said to Tinsel that she was framing her personal experience in a "shitty" way.

Tinsel: Not just in my experience, in the experience of dozens of women whose testimony is on this board

Lemonade: OK, but does my opinion not count just because there's a thread on here about trans widows?
I'm entitled to think that's a shitty way to think about your (general your) partner.
They're not dead. They're still alive. Not a widow.

It's available for everyone

Apologies, just scrolled back and missed that post
Didn't know, still not sure how to quote on here if so, will have to have a look as must definitely be a new thing as you never could before!

I’m finding the “haha”s and “lol”s pretty distasteful.
A (presumably) physically healthy person is talking about having life-changing surgery that will likely sterilise them and remove sexual function. I don’t find that a laughing matter.

Along with previous posters, I grew up in the era where some people (most of whom were women and girls) expressed their discomfort with their bodies via anorexia - we certainly didn’t encourage people in their belief that they were fat, as much as they wanted us to. So, I am seeing the current phase of young women seeing their bodies as wrong through the same lens.

Please stop misrepresenting it. You directly said to Tinsel that she was framing her personal experience in a "shitty" way

Tinsel asked me questions how I'd feel if my husband said he was going to transition.
I answered with MY thoughts.
That was before I knew I was supposed to run a background check on every poster and know the ins and outs of their personal lives.

Do you see now why feminists argue against gender ideology? 40 years ago a woman who wanted to do 'male' things would call herself a feminist and fight for her right to do them. Now she thinks she has a 'male' gender identity and needs to change her body. What the hell has gone wrong?

I think it's totally bizarre that "gender" has been reified as a be all and end all "identity" and is seen as really progressive. But I don't think some younger people understand why. I'm not even that old! I do think that gender dysphoria is a thing, that it's a psychological medical condition and may well have a biological basis. But the ideology of gender identity, just no.

Your response to me trying to help you shows up your pettiness, and rather than graciously acknowledging a tip to make your posting life easier, you piss about and read shit that wasn't there.I was trying to help you FFS

Assuming a cross post as I said I apologise as I missed that post?

**

What are you actually on about? I said I missed the post. Apologised.
Which you're still ignoring.
Seems it's you acting in bad faith not me

Interesting article Spartacus. I wasn‘t aware this phase where sex is regarded as ‚non constant‘ could last that long. Pretty sure my kid asked this before 3 and accepted and internalized the answer at that age. Of course it may depend on when the kid is told and what.
In the Western European Country where I live, kids are taught in school at age 6 about the difference between boys‘ and girls‘ bodies. (And the hair cut and face of the boy and girl cartoon showing the anatomical difference are practically indistinguishable, which I appreciate).

Tinsel asked me questions how I'd feel if my husband said he was going to transition.
I answered with MY thoughts.
That was before I knew I was supposed to run a background check on every poster and know the ins and outs of their personal lives.

No, she had already made it perfectly clear she was speaking from personal experience as a transwidow and that there were many other women on the site who were also. Your "shitty" comment was directly after that, to her, as is perfectly clear in the quotes I posted from both of you, yours directly after hers. You specifically said that you didn't agree with the term "transwidow" when you know that's how the women define themselves and frame their experience of abusive relationships.

Please stop misrepresenting what was said.

A (presumably) physically healthy person is talking about having life-changing surgery that will likely sterilise them and remove sexual function. I don’t find that a laughing matter

Neither do I, and I've never laughed at anything of the sort.
Does that mean that I can't share a joke, or talk to them in a lighthearted way over things said on here, they're still people!

I know some people deliberately misunderstand other posters, possibly to feed their need for an argument / human contact / narcissistic supply. But, as pointed out elsewhere on Mumsnet, half of people have an IQ less than 100, so may genuinely be struggling to follow logical arguments.

No, she had already made it perfectly clear she was speaking from personal experience as a transwidow and that there were many other women on the site who were also

The first thing, said to me I saw was "how would you feel if your husband said he was going to transition?
CBA to scroll back but it's there on the thread.
So I answered. With MY opinion. If my husband said he was going to transition.
I said shitty behaviour thinking referring to your partner as dead (widow) as I said before I knew we were supposed to know posters personal lives.
If you don't want to hear a potentially different view, maybe not ask the question in the first place?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Do you see now why feminists argue against gender ideology? 40 years ago a woman who wanted to do 'male' things would call herself a feminist and fight for her right to do them. Now she thinks she has a 'male' gender identity and needs to change her body. What the hell has gone wrong?

I think it's totally bizarre that "gender" has been reified as a be all and end all "identity" and is seen as really progressive. But I don't think some younger people understand why. I'm not even that old! I do think that gender dysphoria is a thing, that it's a psychological medical condition and may well have a biological basis. But the ideology of gender identity, just no.

This.

Even in the trans community there's a split, just from my perspective as a trans man a lot of ftm people don't mind things about that just being titled as for women because we don't want people thinking about us in relation to female functions, if that makes sense.

Yes, it completely does (sorry catching up on what I missed). I don't actually think the whole "menstruators" thing is done for you, it's more what biologically male people want, to separate "woman" and "female". Because they aren't female.

CBA to scroll back but it's there on the thread.

I was arsed to scroll back. Your comment wasn't before she told you about her personal life. As many pp saw.

@Fearandsurprise

I’d rather people said ‘haha’ than banged on about how I’m ruining my body to be honest

@Ereshkigalangcleg

not sure about that, the always venus sign was for trans men and that’s broadly the same issue. maybe some trans women did mind but I think it’s mostly an ftm thing

I disagree, or I think there would be more pressure to have prostate cancer charities talked about as "people with prostates". FTM people simply do not have the same societal power. The impetus to detach "woman" from female, or completely appropriate female so women don't have a word at all, comes from males.

I’d rather people said ‘haha’ than banged on about how I’m ruining my body to be honest

No ideas if you like flowers or gin but I'm sending you some flowers and fuckton of gin as you probably need it after this thread lol
Oops I lolled again and it has NOTHING to do with you being trans and supposedly mutilating yourself and that's what I'm apparently laughing at
Just two people talking to each other and sharing a joke like people tend to do

alexk3
xkcd.com/386/

@Ereshkigalangcleg

not convinced but alright

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

appreciate both, thank you!!

@MadBadDaddy

god there really is an xkcd for everything!