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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
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ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:15

Lemonade, it's weird you can't just say 'sorry, it wasn't particularly kind of me to describe transwidows as shitty, and given I'm all about you women being kind to trans ppl, I apologise for being dismissive and harsh to the partners of married transitioners.'

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:18

Why should I apologize for my opinion?
I'm entitled to my views.

Fearandsurprise · 14/07/2020 02:18

[quote alexk3]@Fearandsurprise

really cannot imagine that situation but by all means add your voice to the 30 other people telling me the same thing[/quote]
You can’t imagine some people not understanding the full implications of transition? I know a number of people who don’t.

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 02:18

You said
Having your identity and right to "be" who you are discussed - just... must be shit.For lack of a better word!

And agreed with yourself
Yes, it must.

And then you did just that again.
Whether you knew Tinsel or not, you were still describing women who refer to themselves as trans widows as shitty.

‘I’m sorry’ would have been more honest and quicker to type. You’re quick enough to post apologies when you think you may have offended or upset transgendered people. Women, as per, can get to fuck tho right. lol

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:19

Except you said, which isn't on the screenshot Humpty provided

Tinsel went further before you answered.

And anybody who does read the trans widows threads and takes away the message that we just didn't love our husband's enough, well

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as to whether you read it.

But your response to Tinsel:

Tinsel That's not really how it happens

In YOUR experience
I'm entitled to my thoughts.

alexk3 · 14/07/2020 02:20

@Fearandsurprise

a trans person who is involved enough to be lurking here to see GC views and yet doesn’t know/will never find out at an appointment that t makes you sterile? yes i find that hard to believe lol.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:21

Lemonade, it's weird you can't just say 'sorry, it wasn't particularly kind of me to describe transwidows as shitty, and given I'm all about you women being kind to trans ppl, I apologise for being dismissive and harsh to the partners of married transitioners.'

Yes, it is.

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:21

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Why should I apologize for my opinion? I'm entitled to my views.
Um...human decency?
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:23

It has nothing to do with "women can get to fuck" I have no idea who is or isn't female on here.
Why would I think women should get to fuck? Am I not allowed to disagree with other women just because they're a woman? That's ridiculous if so.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:25

Am I not allowed to disagree with other women just because they're a woman? That's ridiculous if so.

Not nice to call women's framing of their own relationship breakdowns, that you know fuck all about, "shitty" though, is it?

Would you go on the Relationships board and say that?

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:26

What's super weird is that if women here just 'give their opinion, which they are entitled to' without bending over backwards to consider the needs of men and male-oriented women by exaggerated policing of their own language, Lemonade thinks they are nasty, horrible transphobes.

One rule for me, another for thee, apparently.

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:28

Imagine 'not being sure' who is female on 1. A feminist board and 2. A transwidow thread.

Hint: if you assume most posters here are female, you won't be often wrong.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:28

Um human decency
On this thread this is so hypocritical.
A trans woman's been told to go away and pontificate elsewhere.
A trans man has been told he's just too young to know better
But when it's disagreeing with a woman it's where's your human decency? What, be kind? Thought that was frowned upon as a thought round these here parts.
Why be kind but only if it suits me?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:28

I think we all know the score.

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 02:29

@ContentiousOne

What's super weird is that if women here just 'give their opinion, which they are entitled to' without bending over backwards to consider the needs of men and male-oriented women by exaggerated policing of their own language, Lemonade thinks they are nasty, horrible transphobes.

One rule for me, another for thee, apparently.

No no no because lol Lemonade doesn’t know who’s posting as a woman or man or transgender so it’s just pure coincidence that lemonade knows who to apologise to and who’s a massive transphobe!

Honest.

lol

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 02:31

But when it's disagreeing with a woman it's where's your human decency? What, be kind?

Calling someone shitty is not disagreeing with a point, it’s not a valid argument. It is name calling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2020 02:33

No one asked you to #bekind, Lemonade. That would absolutely be the triumph of optimism over experience.

ItsLateHumpty · 14/07/2020 02:34

No one asked you to #bekind, Lemonade. That would absolutely be the triumph of optimism over experience.

Class! Gin

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:35

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Um human decency On this thread this is so hypocritical. A trans woman's been told to go away and pontificate elsewhere. A trans man has been told he's just too young to know better But when it's disagreeing with a woman it's where's your human decency? What, be kind? Thought that was frowned upon as a thought round these here parts. Why be kind but only if it suits me?
Your language has-been far more intemperate than that of the women responding to Alex. Pretty sure no-one here called his character 'shitty'.
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 14/07/2020 02:38

I said shitty behaviour. Not that they were a shitty person.

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:39

God, but I'm sick of anti-feminists like Lemonade pontificating on a feminist forum about how women's sense-making of the men in their lives is 'shitty'.

I'd mind less if Lemonade modelled the polite, caring, accepting language they seem to demand women use in regard to men, in relation to the very feminists they seek to engage with.

Rank hypocrisy gets my goat.

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:43

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I said shitty behaviour. Not that they were a shitty person.
You can still apologise for that. You are super keen to tell women that we cannot 'get' trans. An attitude like that requires consistency - how about 'I haven't had the experience of having a long term partner come out as trans, so honestly, while I think I know how I'd feel, I don't know for sure, so I'm not going to judge transwidows as 'shitty' for how they feel.'
Fearandsurprise · 14/07/2020 02:49

[quote alexk3]@Fearandsurprise

a trans person who is involved enough to be lurking here to see GC views and yet doesn’t know/will never find out at an appointment that t makes you sterile? yes i find that hard to believe lol.[/quote]
I see nothing to “lol” about.

Through my involvement with people with autism, I know that the language used around transition is not clear.
Even you, within two posts, have shifted from “probably makes you sterile” to “makes you sterile”. This ambiguity may be fine for you, but there are many for whom it would not be.

ContentiousOne · 14/07/2020 02:50

We all know you can't apologise, though, because you have a clearly expressed empathy deficit when it comes to women.

You know, we used to have a thread here for parents of children with a sudden trans ID. Bet you think they're shitty too. People like you are the reason that thread isn't still going. Because guess what? Women are people too, with - gasp! - feelings. And they are suck to the back teeth of the constant demands to perform linguistic gymnastics to placate people like you, while at the same time, you can stand there and say 'I'm entitled to my opinion. Why should I apologise for it?'

I have an opinion about young women under 25 transitioning to live as if they were men - doesn't mean I'd come onto a thread and call a young transman's choices 'shitty'. Wouldn't even occur to me to frame it like that in my own head. It's a nasty way to think about other, struggling humans.

alexk3 · 14/07/2020 02:51

@Fearandsurprise

alright lol police bloody hell. my sincerest apologises