A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

@Cailleach1

If being Trans means that the way you identify does not fit with that appearance or roles usually expected of your sex, then I imagine so many women in the past would have been put into the Trans box.

Just a few for example:
-Women who wanted to be educated when it was only in males who were educated.

-Women who first wore trousers would have been cross-dressing.
-Women who wanted to vote.
-Women who wanted to do jobs only done by men.

Thankfully, women achieved and expanded their world to include a trouser wearing, educated woman who votes.

I think sometimes women who wanted to be able to do things or act in ways which was not considered as womanly, and maybe went so far as doing them, were put in the witch category. Female healers for example.

I bet, if we tried, we could make that list really long. Should I start a new topic do you think?

accept yourself". You are who you are. You don't need drugs and surgery. Be bold. Be brave. Be yourself

It's not yourself though, is it?
Not being trans, it's hard to wrap my head around and it obviously is for you too, but I can get that it's not yourself, what is absurd is to keep telling someone what they are and aren't.

You haven't "bought" being trans, don't accept it?
Wow.

Why 'wow'? Being trans can be a delusion (a belief that you are something you are not), or wishful thinking (a desire to be something you are not), or a religious style belief involving gendered souls, or a sexual fetish. Have I missed anything?

Why are you surprised that some of us don't believe any of this is real?

I have said numerous times previously that I appreciate the concern but now it's been half a week of trying to defend my transness obviously it's going to start to wear me down a bit

If you are committed to a path of transition, then this forum is not the best place for you...unless you are open to other perspectives on that. Nobody here has any expectation of you. We don't know you. But if you do come here then you must know what sort of perspectives you are going to get.

Probably best for you to step back now...but you know when/if you do return, people would be supportive of you in the way they best know how to be. But that is not going to be with the wholesale affirmation of a trans identity/surgery/hormones etc

Being trans can be a delusion wishful thinking or a religious style belief involving gendered souls, or a sexual fetish

Jeezus
As I said
wow
just..
OK.
Not much else to say to to that really!

It's not yourself though, is it?

What do you mean? You have a body. That body has a sex.

Being yourself means being yourself, regardless of the sex of your body.

Your personality doesn't depend on the sex of your body.

Not much else to say to to that really!

Does that mean you agree, or do you have any alternative definitions?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

around page 10 is all the stuff around my homophobic views, am sure someone said something about my issues with women but there's also all the detrans things I'm being linked which all seem to focus on internalized misogyny. Can't find/be bothered to scroll though 600 messages so will rescind that.

I certainly do not agree.
Just then people say there's no transphobia on here, it's all just "concern for spaces"
Yeah, the undercurrent showing up spectacularly in last few comments

What you are is yourself . Crazy to say otherwise. There may be a feeling that yourself is wrong, that something has gone wrong because of how you feel, but you are still you. Each molecule of hated body part, you grew. Your body acted on its own accord, because only a part of you is conscious mind.,

what I myself feel is that once I accepted that my body was what I was stuck with, it became much easier for me. I learnt to stop thinking there was anything wrong with me and externalised that self hate and disgust. Accept what I could not change.

Obviously now people are told, well, actually you are not stuck with that body, we can help you change it, which changes things. It makes it harder to accept yourself as you are. Instead of realising that there is nothing wrong with you, people are telling you how they can make you better

Which leaves people like me sometime thinking, well why not, it's a great opportunity, and other times I am thinking,It would leave me medicalised for life. Then the aged cynic thinks someone is profiting from that.

You haven't "bought" being trans, don't accept it

I said most here have not bought into transgender ideology. Do you know what an ideology is? Do you understand how they operate?
An ideology is a whole belief system which seeks to explain the world through a certain framework or set of ideas and concepts.

Transgender ideology states that one can literally be born in the wrong body. that there is somehow a 'gendered soul' - that is distinct from one's body; or not in alignment with one's body/biology. That this gender identity is a material fact, rather than a feeling or mental construction. Transgender ideology seeks total affirmation and seeks to suggest that dysphoria is not a mental health issue/adaptational issue, but a sigh that you are literally in the wrong body.

Transgender ideology over-rides sex, or attempts to - even going so far as to say that sex is not real, only gender identity is. It is based on some pretty outlandish ideas about gender roles and male/female stereotypes too; and it has now been co-opted by fetishists and AGP's to boot

Feminists simply don't believe in an inner essence that determines one's sex. And, given how not a single person has ever been able to explain how that works, it's unsurprising.

Narratives everywhere, from the Tavistock, to transmen, to parents, to scientists and psychiatrists, all point to external forces being responsible for gender dysphoria.

In the same way that many trans-people expect outside forces to validate their gender identity by accepting that an inner essence has determined their sex.

Thinking that it's going to happen on a feminist board just means you don't understand Feminism.

It's not personal, Alex. And, of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a step back. You being distressed is not the desired outcome.

But in the total absence of any explanation for gender dysphoria, and the denial of all those proffered, I'm not sure what outcome you're expecting.

I certainly do not agree.

So what is 'being trans' according to you?

“For Stonewall to succeed, it doesn’t have to make people believe as it believes. What it has to do is make people support changes that make trans lives easier.”

Even the new CEO if Stonewall has given up trying to make people believe the unbelievable! Although we do still have to be "made" to submit to whatever changes they fancy.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/27/stonewall-new-boss-gender-transgender-rights-nancy-kelley

@alexk3 - I echo lots of other posters in saying thanks for responding so openly. It's been very interesting reading your experiences and views.

@wellbehavedwomen THANK YOU for your lengthy post from the other day re vulnerable women and the prison stats etc. I was aware of most of this from reading these boards regularly but your single post really explained clearly what I have tried to explain to friends and colleagues a few times. I will be copying and saving your post for future reference! I am a liberal person in almost every respect so people are always shocked if I express any 'anti-trans' sentiment and it's tough to make them understand that it's not 'anti-trans' (OF COURSE everyone, including trans people, has the right to live safely etc etc), but that it is pro-WOMEN and I shouldn't feel awkward or ashamed defending the hard-won rights women have fought for. I shouldn't have to prioritise the feelings of one group over the physical safety of another. Just thank you, thank you, for articulating my own thoughts more clearly than I ever seem able to!

Just then people say there's no transphobia on here

If you define transphobia as anything which does not accept wholesale transgender ideology ......then you are going to come to that conclusion.
but you have clearly been brought up on this stuff, or have accepted it without question.

If you are committed to a path of transition, then this forum is not the best place for you

Pfft...and I thought I was just being cynical and paranoid wondering if this entire topic was just a honeytrap for all the bullies.

All the posts saying the equivalent of "I don't accept feminism, therefore women don't exist"

Lemon and daisies, you do tend to do a lot of 'flouncing' but not much in the way of analysis. It's all love and rainbows, and feelings......

All the posts saying the equivalent of "I don't accept feminism, therefore women don't exist"

Women obviously do exist. We are adult female humans.

Would you like to explain what 'being trans' is?

Eresh, a few posters did say that Alex's casual insistance that lesbians can put up with males presence at all times if that's what they want, to be quite homophobic. It is homophobic, but obviously we are dealing with definitions of words that are all dogwhistles unless used in the Trans registered trademarks version.

All the posts saying the equivalent of "I don't accept feminism, therefore women don't exist

Not all women are feminists ( even on here), but that doesn't stop them from being women. Woman is the name given to an adult human female, regardless of her nationality, race, religion, political affiliation.

What has been said is an honest assessment of the situation. One can accept bodily or gender dysphoria, without accepting transgender ideology. Not accepting transgender ideology does not not mean the person suffering from dysphoria ceases to exist.

alex, you are under no obligation to post about yourself at all. Most who have read the thread have found your contributions interesting, but you don't have to keep replying if you are distressed by it.

I'm going to suggest to other posters that given Alex has said they aren't enjoying the focus on them, it might be respectful to stop tagging Alex in to the conversation so they are free to leave it be if they want to.

You're obviously welcome to stay, Alex, and continue the conversation. But it may well go in ways that you aren't comfortable with, and that is not personal or in your control.

Alex you will find a wide range of views here. As I said before I accept you as a trans man. There is a possibility you may feel differently in future - personally I don't assume that you will, obviously I know nothing else about you! which is why I hope you find peace and happiness in your way forward. I think there was one post referencing internalised homophobia which was deleted - it must be painful to have people musing about you like that. If it's any consolation every thread I've started (on anything, like taking my child to the shops!) has had people making weird assumptions, getting things face-palmingly wrong, projecting and being dismissive, so I think that's just an inevitable part of posting on a very wide-reaching forum. I know that doesn't really make it easier though.

In terms of your thought experiment, I didn't answer before, but it's something I've considered from time to time for years. Other than the sheer shock of being in a different body I don't think I'd feel too differently - I don't need my "female" body particularly any more - I've had my babies etc- I'd actually be quite interested to see how life was different as a man, although would be better if I was living life again perhaps to see how male socialisation affects my growing up. I can't think of anything about my female body that affects my personality, values, wants, needs etc, apart from my feminism and I'd hope I'd still want freedom from the patriarchy for all even if I was a bloke...! so in short, don't think I'd mind too much. I certainly don't have an inner sense of femininity - do you think gender is largely about masculinity/femininity rather than anything else?

(sorry - also what Floral said!)

You're obviously welcome to stay, Alex, and continue the conversation. But it may well go in ways that you aren't comfortable with, and that is not personal or in your control

Well said! Agreed!