A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

I can't imagine what being trans is like

Lemonade - honestly, I can imagine what being trans is like in terms of dysphoria much easier than I can imagine what you share with trans people - an undefinable, indescribable, internal feeling/sense of being a male or female that doesn't involve biology.

Really not loving the amount of people just telling me I'm wrong, but anyway. Just looking at/comparing myself to that detrans article (hope that worked) from the other day

It's more about concern, rather than telling you you are wrong. The effects of hormones can be permanent, and even damaging; and the thought of having surgery on a healthy body just feels so brutal.

@Justhadathought

Yes I know, but it has exactly the same effect of massively exacerbating my anxiety that prior to ever bloody answering this post had been completely sorted. It might feel brutal for you, but if you couldn't look in the mirror/shower regularly/function without constricting your lungs/be in a relationship/be able to sleep without having a thick pillow against your chest, I guarantee you would feel differently.

@alexk3 I've just looked back at all your posts on this thread to see what you mean when you say you are 'trans', and all I could find was this explanation (apologies if I missed a longer one - it's a long thread):

I just want to be referred to as male and have a male body, outside of that I'm not bothered.

Many of us want things that we don't have - some of them are achievable and some not. You are old enough to know that you can never have a male body, because you are female and sex change is impossible, so that part is not achievable, and you need to come to terms with it.

As for being referred to as male, you can never have complete control over how other people refer to you. If you make some major changes to your body you might convince many people that you are male, but perhaps not everyone, and relying on the behaviour of others for your mental well-being is not healthy.

What you are doing is pursuing the impossible, and you might find yourself happier if you accepted yourself for who you are, rather than trying to change yourself in order to become something you are not and never can be.

@OldCrone

thanks really appreciate you exacerbating my dysphoria! I can have as close to a male body as scientifically possible, don't really care about chromosomes.I'm referred to as male consistently even pre-t so not too worried but thank you so much for the concern.

If being Trans means that the way you identify does not fit with that appearance or roles usually expected of your sex, then I imagine so many women in the past would have been put into the Trans box.

Just a few for example:
-Women who wanted to be educated when it was only in males who were educated.

-Women who first wore trousers would have been cross-dressing.
-Women who wanted to vote.
-Women who wanted to do jobs only done by men.

Thankfully, women achieved and expanded their world to include a trouser wearing, educated woman who votes.

I think sometimes women who wanted to be able to do things or act in ways which was not considered as womanly, and maybe went so far as doing them, were put in the witch category. Female healers for example.

Yes I know, but it has exactly the same effect of massively exacerbating my anxiety that prior to ever bloody answering this post had been completely sorted. It might feel brutal for you, but if you couldn't look in the mirror/shower regularly/function without constricting your lungs/be in a relationship/be able to sleep without having a thick pillow against your chest, I guarantee you would feel differently

Nobody is trying to minimise your distress....or deny your dysphoric feelings, but you are surely aware that this particular forum tends to be a meeting place for discussion of trans ideology, and how that impacts upon, and effects, the people, the children, the young adults, and others 'caught up' in it.

Anxiety is a feature of life, and even after 'transition' you are likely to experience it. One of the notable aspects of the TRA movement is that nobody is supposed to question the desire to transition; or where it might stem from......total affirmation. And unless affirmation is total and unquestioning than there tends to be a feeling that one's whole existence or 'right to exist' is threatened. That in itself can only cause further anxiety.

If being Trans means that the way you identify does not fit with that appearance or roles usually expected of your sex,

According to Stonewall, that is the definition of trans.

A lot of women here are trans by that definition, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to use those two words together to describe myself without being deleted.

@Justhadathought

not really caught up in trans ideology, just have gender dysphoria. I commented because the OP asked a trans view, not really because I wanted to be told continually that I am ruining my life and have an undeveloped brain.

Yes I know I'll always have anxiety but it would be nice if when I had it under control it wasn't then flared up again. I think the very affirming sections of the online trans community are an issue but it's not something I look at, and not something I have experienced from medical professionals.

Yes I know I'll always have anxiety but it would be nice if when I had it under control it wasn't then flared up again. I think the very affirming sections of the online trans community are an issue but it's not something I look at, and not something I have experienced from medical professionals

But it is unrealistic to blame or make other people responsible for your anxiety. It puts the locus of control outside of you, and that in itself is not conducive to good mental health. It is not abusive or uncaring to ask questions or make observations. This is a parenting forum ( as well as one that tend to being critical of gender ideology) and many of us have children your age, or have experience with counselling, mental health issues, teaching, and so on.

When I was 22, I already had a three year old daughter - and when I look back, it is quite extraordinary the journey I've been on , and the ways in which my life has changed since then.

alexk3 If you are feeling uncomfortable then there is no shame in taking a step back. Some of the posters you are currently engaging with will never, in a month of Sundays, see you as you see yourself. To them, you are a confused woman in need of salvation, which is the only reason they are being as 'respectful' as they are. It's not scepticism, it's denial. There is too much at stake, in their eyes, to ever see things differently. They don't represent all the voices on this site.

You can't win them all.

If you are feeling uncomfortable then there is no shame in taking a step back

This

Not the rest of it...but deffo this

And what just said

alexk3 If you are feeling uncomfortable then there is no shame in taking a step back. Some of the posters you are currently engaging with will never, in a month of Sundays, see you as you see yourself

Of course people can accept that people see themselves in different ways...but that is quite another matter to suggesting that people think that having to undergo radical surgery and take potentially damaging hormones in order to be yourself is fine and dandy. Or that somehow anxiety or insecurity will vanish. Or making other people/the whole world be responsible for your suffering or for the maintenance of your identity is a good way to go.

@Justhadathought

It's hardly unrealistic to say that people telling me I'm secretly a misogynist/homophobe is exacerbating my anxiety over my identity. It might not be conducive to good mental health but it is unfortunately what happens. I haven't said it's either of those things, I have said numerous times previously that I appreciate the concern but now it's been half a week of trying to defend my transness obviously it's going to start to wear me down a bit.

What you are doing is pursuing the impossible, and you might find yourself happier if you accepted yourself for who you are,

It's obviously not who he is though, so why tell someone what they are and how they should be?
I don't get it.

There is too much at stake, in their eyes, to ever see things differently. They don't represent all the voices on this site

Respect does not have to mean total agreement or affirmation. That is one of the many big failings of TRA ideology. That the world must be a safe space and always a positively affirmative place, otherwise one's mental health is threatened. It's a delusion - with costs attached to it.

@MadBadDaddy

thank you

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

thank you! lot of respect for you

@MadBadDaddy Mon 13-Jul-20 16:07:42

All of what you just said there.
I find the tone between how you both are spoken to differing which is interesting - you get meh, what do you know, male socialisation" type comments, Alex gets concern as "just a lost, confused woman"
If you're (general you not aimed at anyone in particular) not trans, where do you get off telling other people what they are and aren't?

It's hardly unrealistic to say that people telling me I'm secretly a misogynist/homophobe is exacerbating my anxiety over my identity.

Who has called you either of those things? They just have their own views on why people transition and the impact of it.

It's obviously not who he is though, so why tell someone what they are and how they should be?I don't get it

You must know that you are not going to get total affirmation here. Because this is a place in which most people simply do not accept the edicts of transgender ideology. We haven't bought it. Although many do have concerns and experience around mental health and psychotherapies.

If total affirmation is what you are after, you need to go to a forum which will offer it. A bit like a Pro Ana site.

If you're (general you not aimed at anyone in particular) not trans, where do you get off telling other people what they are and aren't?

According to the Stonewall trans umbrella, most of us on here are trans.

this is a place in which most people simply do not accept the edicts of transgender ideology.
We haven't bought it

You haven't "bought" being trans, don't accept it?
Wow.
OK
If that's not what you mean apologies but wow if so (sorry can't think of another word lol) just.... OK!

thanks really appreciate you exacerbating my dysphoria!

This is absurd. All I did was state some facts and offer some advice - "accept yourself". You are who you are. You don't need drugs and surgery. Be bold. Be brave. Be yourself.

Most of us have (or have had) issues with our bodies. Bits we hate. Bits we want to change. For me, accepting my body the way it is was liberating.

Why do you think changing your body will help your mental health?