A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

It is an interesting conundrum as to when belief systems in opposition to an accepted reality step over the line into a safe space and become less an item of debate and more of a threat.
FTM trans people, being female, should always be included in feminism and deserve the same legal protections as other women.
Where I am desperately uncomfortable is where male voices are prioritised over the rights of women to defend a space to discuss their rights.
In these instances, I am becoming frustrated.
FWR is one of the very few spaces where women (adult human females) can meet freely. Over the last few weeks, more and more voices who want to minimize the aims of feminism and discuss their own male experience are conducting very lengthy campaigns to dilute our ability to group and organize.
I don’t come to a feminist space to listen to a male pontificate on his experience of pretending to be female. I find it hard to listen to females discussing the reasons that being a female in a western society is an untenable position for them.
The latter is an essential part of feminism. The former is utterly irrelevant.
Any position that eschews the factual reality of sex is an anachronism on a feminist board. Sex permeates every aspect of women’s lives. It is not possible to escape its reality, however much you wish it so. Women who wish to escape their femalehood is a feminist issue. Men who want in to femalehood is a feminist issue only in terms of prevention. No. You are not female. Not a woman. I will not have you diluting women’s legal protections. Or our voices. Go away and pontificate elsewhere.

I know I'm not the thread police but I'm wondering if everyone might agree that it's now time to leave Alex's personal experience as it already stand in this thread. There's been a lot of information on that I'm really grateful for and I'm sure the discussion has been food for thought for a lot of us but, I hope obviously, I didn't want this thread to cause anyone a personal crisis.

Virtual cuppa for you, Alex.

In all fairness to Alex, I did call him homophobic, because Alex’s assertion that males can be lesbians is bloody homophobic.

Anyway, leaving that behind, I’ve been mulling over this question of whether I’d feel uncomfortable/unhappy if I woke up tomorrow in a male body.

Well, from a purely biological point of view I’d have to get used to being hairier, but I wouldn’t have to worry about being judged for not shaving. I hardly ever bother nowadays but the other day I did because I was wearing a vest top, and I felt my family might judge me for having hairy armpits. I could experiment with facial hair or not, see what I like. Going for a we would be much easier because I wouldn’t have to down trou, and I certainly wouldn’t miss my periods.Sex would be exciting to explore, and of course if I was male I’d be straight, and a reasonable looking, sane, solvent, decent bloke of my age would have a pretty good chance of finding a partner, so I don’t think I’d have much trouble there, it would certainly be easier than finding a girlfriend, especially nowadays. I’d like to be taller and stronger so I don’t get ignored and pushed into, and I doubt I’d get anywhere near the agro I get because other men would see me as a potential threat. I could go out and buy all the clothes I’d like to wear that I can’t at the moment, because they won’t fit a 5 ft 2 large breasted woman.

From a social point of view I’d enjoy not being patronised and talked down to, and I’d not miss the snarky comments I get from men when I’m doing one of my more masculine hobbies. I wouldn’t miss the background noise of sexual comments, and I wouldn’t mind walking alone after dark because I’d be more able to defend myself. I’d like going into the barbers and not worrying about being refused service because of my sex which has happened to me a few times.

I think I’d quite like to wake up with a male body if I’m honest. There’s nothing about being female I’d particularly miss apart from the sisterhood of other women, but there’s so many women who are happy to rally around men that I’m sure I could satisfy that need if I said the right things. Mens’ toilets are grim but I’d only be nipping in and out, and other men seem to manage so I’m sure I’d get used to the stink of piss for a minute or two.

Actually I’m beginning to wish I could wake up tomorrow as a man now. It’s a shame it’s not possible really. If it was possible to actually change sex into an entirely male or female body I wonder how many men would swap with me?

Lemon and daisies, you do tend to do a lot of 'flouncing' but not much in the way of analysis. It's all love and rainbows, and feelings...

Eh? Where the heck have I flounced I'm obviously still here like the muppet I am lol
Unless "flouncing" means something else here otherwise it makes no sense!

@madwoman1ntheattic

It is an interesting conundrum as to when belief systems in opposition to an accepted reality step over the line into a safe space and become less an item of debate and more of a threat. FTM trans people, being female, should always be included in feminism and deserve the same legal protections as other women. Where I am desperately uncomfortable is where male voices are prioritised over the rights of women to defend a space to discuss their rights. In these instances, I am becoming frustrated. FWR is one of the very few spaces where women (adult human females) can meet freely. Over the last few weeks, more and more voices who want to minimize the aims of feminism and discuss their own male experience are conducting very lengthy campaigns to dilute our ability to group and organize. I don’t come to a feminist space to listen to a male pontificate on his experience of pretending to be female. I find it hard to listen to females discussing the reasons that being a female in a western society is an untenable position for them. The latter is an essential part of feminism. The former is utterly irrelevant. Any position that eschews the factual reality of sex is an anachronism on a feminist board. Sex permeates every aspect of women’s lives. It is not possible to escape its reality, however much you wish it so. Women who wish to escape their femalehood is a feminist issue. Men who want in to femalehood is a feminist issue only in terms of prevention. No. You are not female. Not a woman. I will not have you diluting women’s legal protections. Or our voices. Go away and pontificate elsewhere.

Beautifully put.

The thread specifically asked for trans women and trans men's experiences though, their voice was asked for - who are you to tell them to go away?
She's got as much right as anyone else to post, especially when the whole bloody thread specifically asked for trans opinions!

Well, WhatIsThisFuckery I think if any of us say homophobic, or misogynist, or racist things, we should be challenged on that, so I have no issue at all with anyone on the thread being challenged in that way, and I support your statements on the matter.

@OldCrone

don’t think it’s ‘absurd’ to say that you writing that ‘i am not and never can be’ male would make me feel dysphoric? obviously it is a fact but it’s also clearly something that i already know.

i think it’ll help my dysphoria because t and surgery change everything i’m dysphoric about.

@Justhadathought

i knew i wouldn’t get affirmation, but i just wanted to offer my perspective as i have done. Just feel like i have been over the ‘what if you regret it’ stuff a million times!

@FloralBunting

i don’t mind really, i’ve just been answering things i’m tagged in anyway. was just maybe more interesting (for everyone!) when it wasn’t just ‘i think you’re making a massive mistake’.

@bishopgiggles

thank you, and yes i was sure i’d seen something like that! that’s a really interesting response, again one that I didn’t expect. I’m not really sure honestly, I’m not very masculine - people sometimes assume im a gay man. Itry not to think too much about it really because I just end up confusing myself really, but I think what a few other posters have said about not wanting to wake up in a male body because they feel innately female is pretty similar to how I feel (as in we both have an innate sense of gender). I find it interesting how that doesn’t seem to be common here though

And also to underline that no one should be surprised that female voices are prioritized here over others. And no apology or qualification will be given for that.

I'm sorry for any part of the frustrations I have caused by perhaps putting this thread in the wrong place. I'm not au fait with all the boards on Mumsnet (it's news to me there is a trans board, as I think someone said upthread).

I have just been lurking around the feminism boards for a while and thought it was the best place I could think of to put my questions but can well understand why that may have been a misjudgement on my part so apologies.

Well, given my above post I think my opinion is valid as a trans opinion. I mean if it is a real thing not just a thing that somebody has to say they are then surely I’m trans?

I find it interesting how that doesn’t seem to be common here though

Same

@SpiritOfEnquiry

thank you! it’s alright really, don’t mind being tagged will just only reply if I think it’s something that hasn’t been covered a lot already :)

@Whatisthisfuckery

I knew someone had! Again find your perspective really interesting. I do wonder how many non-GC women feel some innate sense of gender, like a few of the women here have. It makes sense that women with GC views tend to not feel any innate gender, because it makes the trans perspective even more foreign? Would be really good if there could be a survey or something

@SpiritOfEnquiry

to be honest I think more trans people probably lurk this board than any other!

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

The thread specifically asked for trans women and trans men's experiences though, their voice was asked for - who are you to tell them to go away? She's got as much right as anyone else to post, especially when the whole bloody thread specifically asked for trans opinions!

My question really is whether this thread (posted with the best of intentions) has invited people to negotiate ground. Understanding other people’s opinions is extremely important. Giving the impression that female spaces are available for negotiation, and continuing to advance the erosion of women’s spaces as a result, is potentially problematic. I spend a lot of time talking to transwomen. I do not invite them into a very rare women centred space, unless it is to listen.

Although GC tend not to have a feeling of gender, i often think that GC and trans are often close , in a need to be seen as themselves, not as a sexed body

I am a woman, but I don't "feel like a woman". I just feel like me.

Me too. Which is why I struggle to understand the whole issue tbh. But there are many things that people think that I just don't get either. Religion is another one that I just don't understand really. I used to believe and then one day I didn't. I know the trigger, but have no idea why my thinking changed.

Perhaps it is just unexplainable?

What I can't accept, however, is people who tell me I 'must' believe something that I don't. Or who deny me the right to talk about it openly.

We've had transwomen and transmen talk about their experience on here quite a lot.

Mostly transwomen, it has to be said.

They seem to be drawn here, apparently thinking that if only they could explain why we should agree with them, everything would get sorted out.

Unfortunately, there is never any actual argument, other than just accept this without question.

It's daft enough to think that society should accept things without question, but even more so when there are rights at stake. For both women, and their daughters.

It's not going to happen. Ever.

Alex If you wanted to do a survey about whether women feel an innate sense of gender then you’d have to define it. How would you word the question? I mean it would be hard to word, because most womens’ experience of being women is based on the fact that they are women.

I’d be genuinely interested in how you might word such a survey?

@Whatisthisfuckery

I have absolutely no idea, to be honest! If I had a good way of phrasing it I would have said it on thursday when I brought up the ‘magical sex change’ idea. The way most women here don’t feel like they do have a gender is probably the most interesting thing I’ve learnt from this thread tbh

It's only interesting if you don't know that the promotion of the idea of innate gender identity has been a deliberate strategy deployed to integrate cross dressing males into the female sex. If enough people had believed it, it may have worked. But as demonstrated here, even those that claim they have one are stumped at a description.

The only people who will wake up in a male body tomorrow are the people that go to sleep in one tonight.

@FantaOra

i don’t think that my innate sense of self has anything to do with trans women really, considering i don’t know any and had signs of gender dysphoria before i knew what being trans was

Indeed, many men with gender dysphoria, tend to not want to demand access to female spaces. They want to get on with things under the radar, and not cause a confrontation.

around page 10 is all the stuff around my homophobic views

Thank you, I'd forgotten that the discussion about lesbians and sexual orientation was on this thread. I thought you were referring to something more recent.

I do appreciate you may have taken the criticism of that particular element of trans ideology personally. But I think some women here were pretty unhappy with that conversation too.

alex, then I really do urge you to read and continue to talk here. The feminist perspective on 'gender' as a concept seems like it's something which could help you unpack some of the things which you seem like you are having difficulty explaining. Nearly all of us who post here have wrestled with these questions about what influences, external and internal, have affected our assumptions about ourselves and the world around us, as female people. There's no demand that you come to the same conclusions as everyone else - many of us differ with each other about different things - but feminist critique of gender might help you refine the language you use to share your experience of yourself with others. It definitely helped me.