A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

@SpiritOfEnquiry

Yes I get what you mean! It's so interesting to me that people think that way, I do wonder outside of this board how many women would feel like you, and how would many would feel the opposite ie. find it odd? Thanks for answering!

@EdgeOfACoin

Yeah we're similar ages but then I'm not transitioning just because they think it's right! I just have a lot of anxiety about being wrong (despite the fact that every time I worry I decide I'm not) and that's when they say that they think it's pretty obvious. I think about what I want to do like every day and I always come to the same conclusion regardless of if I've spoken to someone else about it.

Waiting until I'm 22 means going through another year of uni, and then (hopefully) a masters at a different uni not feeling happy in myself so for me it is worth it now. As I've said I don't relate to any detrans stories so I'm pretty sure.

Define a transperson

Honestly, I don't think I can, as infuriating as that must be to hear. My subjective musings are worth what, exactly? I know I am trans, I can usually recognise it in others, but in an objective, rational sense? Sorry. Somewhere between being 6yo and now, I gave up seriously asking the question. I was content to live an unexamined life trying to accept my outrageously undermining sense of self that drives a truck through what most people take for granted.

All the thoughts and ideas you describe are valid, and I'm not denying that the quest to unearth 'the truth' is valid also, seeing as how the world is tying itself up in knots trying to wedge us in somewhere. The fallout from this can be genuinely distressing but like I said, trans people seem optional in a lot of it. But we are here, and the cat is out of the bag. I'm seen as some kind of soldier but feel more like a weapon.

You can't be transgender if ...
I really can.

FantaOra I can't speak for anyone else, but you won't find me on any old topic here. Topic asking TW for input? Topic started by a TW, about a TW? Yeah why not? I also started a topic but didn't force anyone to participate I'm not waving my opinions about just anywhere and I don't think I'm demanding much. You can discuss JKR or Blanchard or whatever the Guardian just said and you won't hear a peep from me.

So you make a statement that this thread is lacking input from transpeople?

When in fact most of the input comes from people who could reasonably be described as trans?

Even if they would not want to describe themselves that way because they think that it's nothing to shout about . People who just have a different way of handling it to the more vocal trans communities

Alexk3, Waiting until I'm 22 means going through another year of uni, and then (hopefully) a masters at a different uni not feeling happy in myself so for me it is worth it now.

What happens if you have surgery, take hormones and still don't feel happy in yourself?

If you have my kind of personality you will have ups and downs and you will change things in your life every few years because you would be happier if ....

I am not saying that is a wrong approach, but I have had enough jobs/partners/houses to know that angst will be with me no matter what. Or do I need to change that one thing?

I'm loving how self-fuelling this discussion is despite barely any input (much less welcome input) from yer actual trans people!
Indeed!

And, super ironically, this is our experience of being trans

Food for thought
must be like discussing your right to be you? Kind of questioning your (your as in all trans people, like you and Alex) existence
can't imagine how that must feel

I'm loving how self-fuelling this discussion is despite barely any input (much less welcome input) from yer actual trans people!

I agree this discussion is quite self-fuelling. You just keep plopping on here and telling us we're wrong. I mean, go ahead, but it is quite tedious. You just ignored what I asked you yesterday, so what's the point you being here if you aren't willing to engage?

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I'm loving how self-fuelling this discussion is despite barely any input (much less welcome input) from yer actual trans people! Indeed!

And, super ironically, this is our experience of being trans

Food for thought
must be like discussing your right to be you? Kind of questioning your (your as in all trans people, like you and Alex) existence
can't imagine how that must feel

Millions of women can understand that as millions of women have had that experience.

It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. Imagine a rat in a maze looking up at the scientist and saying "so you want me to find cheese, yeah?"

Millions of women can understand that as millions of women have had that experience

Not sure what you mean there, sorry? Millions of women have had the experience of being trans?

What kind of scientist says to the rat 'I can't define 'cheese' or 'maze' and BTW you'll get a shock for non compliance''?

Kind of saw me as the rat in this analogy but interesting take.

I'm loving how self-fuelling this discussion is despite barely any input (much less welcome input) from yer actual trans people

This is a women's rights board on mumsnet ( a parenting webiste)...So it's inevitable to expect women to talk about women's and children's rights, spaces and so on, on it.

Whatever the input is from that rather wide demographic that now constitutes 'trans people', makes no difference to the ned for single sex spaces, services and sports; or for women to gather to discuss protecting them.

You should surely know, that when someone tries to force something, or impose a condition onto others, then there will be almost automatic resistance. This, however, would not be so much of an issue if trans people campaigned for their own services, sporting categories and spaces, would it? Rather than trying to colonise those of another group.

Feminists on one side, MRAs on the other. Everyone's got their answers, explanations, stats, stories and agendas. Witnesses for the prosecution are in abundance. Trans people seem almost...optional

You don't need to be an identified feminist to recognise that sex exists, and that women and girls need and value single sex spaces, services and sports. Indeed, most of the entire world recognises the existence of sex, and recognise, also, that sometimes separate services and provisions are required.

justathought

💖

Let me know who wins

It wouldn't be a competition, if the trans lobby was not trying force its way into the spaces set aside for another group. What the goal seems to be is the forceful imposition of transgender ideology onto a whole population. Expect push back.

Waiting until I'm 22 means going through another year of uni, and then (hopefully) a masters at a different uni not feeling happy in myself so for me it is worth it now. As I've said I don't relate to any detrans stories so I'm pretty sure

Neither did the detransitioners befoie they detransitioned. They all tend to be as sure as you.

I attended an event earlier on this year, in Manchester, at which a number of young women spoke about their experiences with transgenderism and transitioning ( & then detransitioning) - both socially and medically. Powerful stuff! Being in your twenties can be such a volatile time...and you are still developing as sense of who you are; experimenting, testing out and so on.

Lemonade, I think the point was that millions of women have had the experience of being ignored and trampled over. Just because they are women , which you will need to take on trust since you didn't experience it.

Just a thought, yes, despite a thread where feminists actively try to further their understanding of the trans experience , there seems to be a sex split on how that experience is explained ( or not), and we still see nothing in any of the explanations or discussions to suggest that removing sex based rights is appropriate

For clarity lemonade, I am assuming you never experienced it based on your previous posts and the fact that you needed it explained to you

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Millions of women can understand that as millions of women have had that experience

Not sure what you mean there, sorry? Millions of women have had the experience of being trans?

“must be like discussing your right to be you? Kind of questioning your existence can't imagine how that must feel“

Lemonade, I’ve amended your quote to hopefully make it clearer what I mean.

I mean million of women over centuries have had to defend their right to be themselves and their right to exist. Lesbians, single mums, women who wanted to work outside the home, women who didn’t want to marry, women who thought differently to how men thought they should.

I’m surprised this is new to someone on the feminist boards even if it’s not an experience you yourself have had.

Thanks Midge, I’m glad I was being clear.

Lemonade, I think the point was that millions of women have had the experience of being ignored and trampled over. Just because they are women , which you will need to take on trust since you didn't experience it

Ah OK, fair enough then thanks for explaining

• seeing as I said I can't imagine what being trans is like and the poster said "millions of women do know what that is like" it did read a bit

@testing987654321

Then I'll have made a mistake? Sick of saying the same thing to everyone really considering no one here knows me at all.

@Justhadathought

Really not loving the amount of people just telling me I'm wrong, but anyway. Just looking at/comparing myself to that detrans article (hope that worked) from the other day:

Sinead -> internalised sexism I don't have and trauma I haven't experienced.

Ellie -> only wanted top surgery to fit in with boys in the changing room, which is so far removed from my experience that I don't understand it at all.

Lucy -> experienced homophobia, I haven't. Also OCD and anorexia of which I have neither.

Lee -> again experienced homophobia (or more like rigid gender roles, I suppose) and trauma. Side note in that I feel really bad for them and it does sound like they had dysphoria so this is the most interesting (for want of a better word) to me.

Thomasin -> hadn't ever heard of lesbians so cannot relate. Heard weird things on tumblr that I agree are not great but again nothing to do with me. 'I thought it would be easier to say I was a boy and decided I was transgender' is so far from my own experience again I just cannot comprehend why they would do that. Had to learn how to behave in a GIC appointment and had traumatic periods which also cannot relate to.

Cross post

must be like discussing your right to be you? Kind of questioning your existence can't imagine how that must feel“

I mean million of women over centuries have had to defend their right to be themselves and their right to exist

That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying
I get that a lot on here feel their existence and right to exist and be themselves is being questioned, but you're right it's not an experience I've ever had as I don't question my existence.
Yes before anyone says, privilege been checked

Women?
The word's still there. It doesn't stop us being women.

Yet JKR is currently the world's biggest transphobe - not for her views on transpeople but because she wants to use the word women to describe women.

It may not stop us being women, but the evidence seems to suggest that we're not allowed to say it out loud.

Don't talk about women's problems, in case the men don't like it.