A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Do keep up, I've answered it

No you didn't, so why patronise? At least try and elaborate on what you mean.
Rowantrees just gave a good reply, thanks and just reading it now

Yes, I did. Please read the thread.

I answered before R0 did, actually.

Except for the fact that 'being a woman' is not just in part biological. It is totally biological

For you. Not me.

I confess to being a little freaked out by how many people it appears have never compared their world view and sense of self to objective reality.

Quite, Bewilderness

For you. Not me.

It's a matter of what is objective truth. You're making a faith based claim. "I know there is an almighty God because I feel His presence" is another example.

Sorry, thread is moving so quickly.
Just to back track on the three strikes discussion up thread.
It's very much still in force, I was emailed fairly recently.

So you agree that for some people being a woman is purely biological, whereas for you it is something different , that does not depend upon biology

Whilst we can give a clear definition of what a biological woman is, you can't give a clear definition of what a woman is to you , and it seems that your definition would exclude a huge number of biological women.

You have not explained what word those excluded women should now be known as. By your definition, I am not woman.

You have not said what single word would be used to describe those biologically female

law, society and science have worked with the biological definition for thousands of years. Every law that we have was written with the assumption that women means class of humans for whom pregnancy expected to be possible at some times in their lives. Do you expect that every law will be re written to be clear if it's biological or gender identity women who are meant when the term woman was used?

Which laws do you feel should relate to bi9logival women and which should be related to gender identity women?

So say I am a biological woman and gender identity of type Male

should I be classed as male or female for equal pay purposes? Should I be classed as male or female if I am sent to jail? When people are designing facilities and using the equality act to provide Male and female spaces, which should I use?

Lemonade - you are probably the most disengenuous poster on here with your faux questions and belief in innate genders and feelings.

I’m happy for you that you don’t see any problems with mixed sex spaces, you have lived a charmed life. However women’s rights are not yours to give away.

Can you just answer the question as to why single sex spaces were first introduced?

What was the threat and why were the spaces needed?

What would be the risk if men were allowed in to those spaces?

You have not said what single word would be used to describe those biologically female

Women?
The word's still there. It doesn't stop us being women.

Every law that we have was written with the assumption that women means class of humans for whom pregnancy expected to be possible at some times in their lives. Do you expect that every law will be re written to be clear if it's biological or gender identity women who are meant when the term woman was used?
Why would you need to rewrite laws? There's laws in place to protect women.
I think it's another thread I'm on rather than here but I said I do think it's important to have on medical records your birth sex. (No idea if that's not the case now and it's been taken off? Hopefully somebody trans can come along and clarify)
It only really becomes a need to know whether trans or biological basis on medical grounds in my opinion

Cross post.
I haven't got any faux questions.
They're all genuine.
Despite what conspiracy bollocks you want to believe.

So no faux questions. Why were women’s single sex spaces introduced?

The reason I first engaged with the debate over gender identity was sports. I truly believe women & girls have the right to single sex sports, whether you're an elite athlete or a middle-aged jogger.
Then it was crisis support & Vancouver Rape Relief - I couldn't believe even traumatised women weren't allowed a space free from males.
And then it was politics - to join the Green Party I had to deny my knowledge of biology, and tolerate abuse from strange men.
Fuck that shit.
My DH shouldn't enter a female changing room, and neither should a trans woman.
By all means introduce spaces & services for mixed sex, single gender groups, but let women have their privacy & dignity that they have fought for over generations.
And don't tell me I have to accept someone is a woman based on their feelings, behaviour and a fucking gold lame purse.

Which is why I'm going to take your questions as coming from a place of bad faith and not answer even though I've been answering things and showing my real life experiences like others have - you clearly don't want to hear other views with your prefacing "disigineous" crap.
If I thought you really wanted an answer then I'd answer.
What does it usually go like?
No is a complete sentence
Or the usual suspects on the thread go with "I don't have to answer your demands" (even though it was literally just a question asked, but still comes across a case of You OK hun?!) lol
So yep. Deflecting that back
As you don't want other viewpoints otherwise you'd be listening instead of being Patronising Bollocks Pants

The how on earth are transwomen also women given their biology is different?

Cross posted again
Stop trying to pretend you really want an answer when it's clear you don't as can't even listen to others views.

Lemonade what about sports? Should trans women play sports in female teams?
Should women be allowed a rape & violence refuge centre where trans women are excluded?

It might not stop you being a woman , but it does stop anyone who has experienced gender dysmorphia and come to terms with being female as purely a description of their biological sex

Recognising the difference between men and woman as being purely the reproductive biology is a key step in enabling someone with gender and body dysmorphia to live a normal and happy life without the need for potentially harmful medical treatment

OK - we are all coming from a bad place so you can’t answer. It’s not a great argument.

A really simple question is why single sex sex spaces were recognised in the EA2010- do you accept there is a need for single sec spaces?

I have never used no on here. I am confident I have never been rude to anyone or posted in bad faith. I do not understand your position and have asked you to answer a couple of questions.

Thank you sally

OK - we are all coming from a bad place so you can’t answer. It’s not a great argument

Did I say that?
No.
I just said if you preface any so called questions with "disigineous" and calling into integrity viewpoints you don't agree with, that doesn't exactly come across with you actually wanting anything answering.
Been on here long enough to know that's a sneery attitude trying to bait.
Meh.
Nah

Would you care to respond though? To the question about whether you consider there is a need for single-sex spaces?
It would help me comprehend the gulf I am trying to cross.