A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

It's dissapointing to see that a discussion on Feminism & Women's Rights board about how has become all about LemonadeAndDaisyChains, yet again.

An important perspective:

'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
Oct 17, 2019
(extract)
"I am an elephant in most rooms because I am a trans widow.

I married a man who fathered my daughter in the conventional way. Ten years later he decided that he had been a woman all along and so our marriage ended. I left the marital home, taking my daughter with me. The man I married, no longer exists and I am forbidden from referring to him by his former “dead name”.

Having your boundaries gradually and forcibly broken down and compromised over a period of time until your marriage becomes nothing like the arrangement that you signed up to, feels exactly like Sarah describes- a slow death with everything you thought you knew about yourself being gradually crushed out of existence. But with the support of other women, we trans widows can rise again.

My experience is becoming more and more common and I have spoken to many women who have found themselves in a similar situation. Women who previously felt completely alone in their struggle.

What can you do to help women like me?

Don’t call my ex “she” when you talk about him to me. Call him what you like when you speak to him, but describing him with female pronouns to me, makes my life not make sense and my daughter’s life not make sense.

Don’t, under any circumstances, refer to him as my daughter’s mother. She only has one mother and it is not him.

Seek out and share the stories of trans widows. Help our voices to be heard. Late transitioning men leave women and girls in their wake- wives, mothers, daughters and sisters who are asked not only to rewrite their past but to celebrate a new future that they do not recognise.

Many trans widows report feeling gagged by everybody else lauding their partners as “stunning and brave”. Our ex’s are often celebrated twitter personalities, newspaper columnists or the subjects of documentaries, but those of us wives who leave are forced to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals. Support those women who put themselves and their children first.

When you hear of a late transitioning male, let your first thought be for these women and how they are affected. If it is somebody in your circle of acquaintance, seek out the wife or the mother and let her know that she has your support." (continues)
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

You have not said what single word would be used to describe those biologically female

Women?
The word's still there. It doesn't stop us being women.

I agree that biological females are called women. However, if you acknowledge the fact that Transmen are biologically female then you must also acknowledge them as women.

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander, so using that logic, if you acknowledge the fact that Transwomen are biologically male you must also acknowledge them as men?

Unless man and woman doesn't just refer to biological sex. In that event, I would be interested as to what specific attributes man and woman refer.

I agree that biological females are called women. However, if you acknowledge the fact that Transmen are biologically female then you must also acknowledge them as women.

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander, so using that logic, if you acknowledge the fact that Transwomen are biologically male you must also acknowledge them as men?

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the UK government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

It's dissapointing to see that a discussion on Feminism & Women's Rights board about how has become all about LemonadeAndDaisyChains, yet again.

That is just such crap! I'm entitled to my opinion and experiences too, however much they don't fit with your agenda. I just said you made a good point upthread, and food for thought, or did you miss that bit in your rush to discredit what I said? My experiences are just as much valid as anyone elses on here. No you (general you before gets miscronstrued) can't dismiss me with "male socialisation" as I've never been one, can't dismiss me as a lost woman who's been brainwashed by some trans cult either who's told me I have to be male as I like so called boys things (whatever that means) it doesn't detract from the fact there's more to me than my body when it comes to being female. I'm just me.

Its not all about you.

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

Which makes it rather surprising that the judge in Maya Forstater's case decided that a belief either similar or identical to this, was unworthy of respect.

Hopefully something that will be rectified before long.

if you acknowledge the fact that Transwomen are biologically male you must also acknowledge them as men?

I acknowledge the fact that even though trans people are biologically their sex, it doesn't stop me being able to accept them as what they identify as.
So yes, trans women are biologically male, nothing so far changes that, but I don't see why that means I have to be wary of them all.
You (general you) don't get to tell other women what they should or shouldn't be frightened of.

Hopefully something that will be rectified before long

Clarity is long overdue.

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

Its not all about you

Did I say it was?
I know it's not all about me.

You're the one who made it sound like it was with this you came out with It's dissapointing to see that a discussion on Feminism & Women's Rights board about how has become all about LemonadeAndDaisyChains, yet again which is what I was referring to.
Never said it was all about me.
It's not at all.
I just have my experience which is what I'm sharing

my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

2. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves.

Sunday Times
(extract)
"Sinead, 29
I wanted to be a boy when I was younger. From 15 it intensified. I googled “I’m a woman but I wish I was a man” and through the power of the internet I found out about [gender] dysphoria and transition.
I had an extreme envy of men and an extreme resentment of myself. I just thought men were better. In a way I had my own strange kind of sexism.
A few painful and difficult things have happened to me that I think were behind me wanting to be a man and not be a woman. I know I was not in the wrong, but they are things I can’t talk about publicly. What I know now is that transitioning wasn’t the way to deal with those things. You go to the gender clinic and within a couple of months you’re on testosterone. The psychiatrist said I was trans. I thought if they prescribed me testosterone then I must be trans. Aside from general questions, no one explored if there were other issues or challenged me.
I’ve tried to talk about background issues with therapists, but gender dysphoria was seen as the cause of my problems and not a symptom of them. Actually I think my gender issues came out of mental health issues, not the other way around.

I felt better when I went out as “Sean”, especially when the testosterone kicked in and my fat redistributed and my voice got deeper. Men stopped looking at me. I thought transitioning was the best thing I had ever done. I was so happy.
The fact is, though, I’ve never drunk as much as when I was Sean. I still hated that I was female. I was still depressed. I still had to drink myself blind to forget. Going to the pub as Sean wasn’t enough to counter that, and I had a breakdown. After that I knew I had to deal with the problems. I realised that I wasn’t trans, and I should never have gone down the medical route.
When I first detransitioned it was hard to accept that I wasn’t a trans man or a “normal” woman either. These days I’m completely apathetic about the results of the testosterone and the mastectomy scars. I don’t like them, I don’t hate them. And that’s progress.
But I still have those dark nights when I sit alone in a room and I think I’m ruined, disfigured and damaged, and I’m not even 30 yet. And then I get better nights when I think it could be worse." (continues)

archive.is/y4LtD#selection-785.0-785.10

Just catching up with this thread. Another one here grateful to you Alex for your contributions, and I genuinely wish you all the best. I accept you as a trans man.

I was interested in you describing your feeling of gender as basically 'unexplainable' - if I was a policy-maker is there any way I'd be able to accurately define "gender" in order to write legislation? Is there any way anyone can find out what their gender is if they're unsure (and do you believe it's possible to not have one, or to lie/be unsure/be mistaken about it)?

For example, getting a GRC involves 'living as the gender' you wish to be - this has obviously invited a lot of questioning about what specifically that means - do you have any views on that? .e.g how could you check someone is 'living in their acquired gender' if that was a requirement?
Thanks. BTW I hope this doesn't feel like a pile-on with everyone asking questions!

I acknowledge the fact that even though trans people are biologically their sex, it doesn't stop me being able to accept them as what they identify as.

Would you accept it if it was your husband?

Would you accept it if it was your husband

I don't know. As in it hasn't happened
I'd like to think even though if he decided to transition at nearly 50 I'd still love him for who he was, as it's him I love and have done for the past 20 odd years.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

It's dissapointing to see that a discussion on Feminism & Women's Rights board about how has become all about LemonadeAndDaisyChains, yet again. That is just such crap! I'm entitled to my opinion and experiences too, however much they don't fit with your agenda. I just said you made a good point upthread, and food for thought, or did you miss that bit in your rush to discredit what I said? My experiences are just as much valid as anyone elses on here. No you (general you before gets miscronstrued) can't dismiss me with "male socialisation" as I've never been one, can't dismiss me as a lost woman who's been brainwashed by some trans cult either who's told me I have to be male as I like so called boys things (whatever that means) it doesn't detract from the fact there's more to me than my body when it comes to being female. I'm just me.

Indeed you are entitled to your opinion and entitled to make your every response a dismissal of other's opinions while you rant on about how other people are wrong to do what you do to them. It has all become rather sad.

entitled to make your every response a dismissal of other's opinions while you rant on about how other people are wrong to do what you do to them

Not done anything of the sort, just saying my experiences.

You (general you) don't get to tell other women what they should or shouldn't be frightened of.

That would apply in general then. Who has the right to tell women they have to share intimate spaces with any group of men? Especially if they feel vulnerable.

So, it is cleared up then, according to the Equality Act 2010, that biological females are called women and that biological males are called men. We don't need to wander into any unfathomable, ethereal musings about any special je ne said quoi beyond biological sex.

I'd like to think even though if he decided to transition at nearly 50 I'd still love him for who he was, as it's him I love and have done for the past 20 odd years.

That's not really how it happens- see the trans widows threads.

@bishopgiggles

thank you! appreciate it.

I honestly am less sure after this thread! what some of the women here have said - about not minding having a male body - has surpised me a lot, I was expecting most people to feel like the few posters who have said that they feel an innate sense of being female/would be distressed in a male body.

I think it's definitely possible to do/be any of those things! I think a minority do lie about it (how there's at least four times the number of transgender inmates than in the general population) which is a shame because it doesn't really help the general image of trans people. Also definitely possible to be unsure/mistaken, for me more funding into GIC's is really important, both for reducing wait-times and allowing people to have more counselling before transition. It is a really hard thing to figure out, all my friends think it is beyond obvious that I'm trans but I've been worrying about it for years!

I think for living as your gender, the GRC boards tend to look at things like date of name change / how long you've been out etc. which I think is quite a good way of doing it, though I've not been through the process and I think it can be quite invasive really. They want dates of gender dysphoria diagnoses as well which again seems sensible really.

No worries!

And anybody who does read the trans widows threads and takes away the message that we just didn't love our husband's enough, well

Would you accept it if it was your husband?

It is reasonable to hope that members of a well-known parenting website also consider the daughters of fathers who transition.

Children of Transitioners
'The Invisible Mother'
August 29th 2019

"One night in 1980 my Mum was wandering the streets of a city, dragging me behind her, desperately trying to find a room in a cheap bed and breakfast for the night. It had been raining and the lights were gleaming on the wet pavement. It was getting late. Her sister had chucked us out again after another row. Mum was working in Debenhams but it wasn’t going well. She had no support from anyone and was battling mental illness – and I mean battling, trying so hard to keep it together. She was working from payday to payday with nothing to spare. She’d left everything we had behind in a dash away from my father" (continues)

Where was my father while this was happening? Actually, doing very well. He’d taken a new job in London now that there was no wife and child to look after. He’d started a new relationship with another woman, not telling her about his predilection for women’s clothing and belief that he was a transsexual, and would shortly be living in her beautiful home and spending her inheritance. No money for us from my father – not one penny while I wore shabby second hand clothes and Mum struggled.

I don’t see much respect for mothers from the trans community, although the word ‘mother’ is sometimes appropriated. I suppose it’s one answer to an obvious problem: what do you call a Daddy who doesn’t want to be called ‘Daddy’ any more? I had to call my father something and he hadn’t provided me with any other option. Ironically, when he was going in for his operation I told friends at school that ‘my mother’ would be away for a while in hospital. At least one of them assumed it was for a hysterectomy. But now I am angry that I had to pretend my real mother didn’t exist. I wish I hadn’t felt obliged to disrespect my mother like that. (continues)

concludes:
I want to write more about this. About how our mothers are shunted aside. About how they are made invisible and aren’t respected and listened to. Partners and children aren’t just something to be discarded in someone’s search for their ‘authentic self’. The transitioner is celebrated for the bravery of their transition. Why aren’t the widows and orphans celebrated for the bravery of dealing with being left behind?

Trans widows don’t seem to get the great profiles in newspapers and magazines. Journalists who think that transition makes someone ‘brave’ and ‘stunning’ don’t feel the same about newly-single mothers whose partners have decided to erase them. Have a look yourself. Find some profiles of formerly married ‘trans women’ and then look for a mention of the mother of their children. On the site Make More Noise, @tranwidow, talks about what women can do for trans widows. It’s a rare, authentic voice from the voiceless. She describes herself aptly as the ‘elephant in the room’ and advises: “Don’t, under any circumstances, refer to him as my daughter’s mother. She only has one mother and it’s not him.”

I only had one mother too."
childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/29/the-invisible-mother/

That's not really how it happens

In YOUR experience
I'm entitled to my thoughts.

That story of desertion is so sad. I don't understand how a father can just abandon and shirk responsibility for his child like that.

In YOUR experience
I'm entitled to my thoughts

Not just in my experience, in the experience of dozens of women whose testimony is on this board.