A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Seems a fuck ton of bother to pretend to be trans or self identify as female just to assault. They just would regardless!

If it was easier to access women's spaces by identifying as trans, do you think this would make it easier for men who are not actually trans to access women for the purposes of assault?

If it was easier to access women's spaces by identifying as trans, do you think this would make it more likely that men who are not actually trans would identify as trans in order to access women for the purposes of assault?

If you have answered 'yes' to either of these questions, do you believe that the women and girls who are victims of these additional assaults are acceptable collateral damage for the benefit gained by a few males who are genuinely unhappy about being the sex they are?

If you have answered 'no' to the first two questions, please explain, with evidence, why you are so certain that predatory men would never pretend to be transgender to access female victims.

But lemonade, without the words for girl and boy, how would you get children to understand therir biology? With no words we would have to use pictures, Currently biology dictates the use of the word girl or boy. Nothing more.

actually trans

What does being "actually trans" really mean? Are we actually suggesting that people can be born in the wrong body?

Suffering from dysphoria used to be classed as a mental health/adaptational issue...not a statement of fact

Thank you crone

It was more We’ll be introducing a three strikes system whereby users deleted more than three times in any rolling six week period will have their membership automatically suspended and we’ll then take a view as to whether they will have membership reinstated that i was thinking of

I haven’t seen that happen for a while..which hopefully is a good sign

The usual narrative on here

Not a reason to answer something I didn't say, quoting me, though, is it?

Why else would you be concerned about trans women being in toilets/etc if it wasn't from a viewpoint of they'll attack you cos trans?
Curious

The natural, instinctive sense of dignity and privacy of one's sex.

I don't care if a trans identified man is harmless and lovely. i just don't think he should be in women only spaces.

Why else would you be concerned about trans women being in toilets/etc

I didn't even mention it! I was referring to the need to have a name for the female sex class stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Clearly self identification will be used by men to abuse women

Even if that wasn't true, i can think of plenty of places where I would not want to share the space with a transwoman, especially those that have all their Male bits. Trauma affects more women than soldiers. Abused women, that's about 20 to 25% of women, can have long lasting mental health problems, triggered by male bodied people.

Nobody's saying that biology isn't a real thing though (well, I'm not anyway)Biology part of being a woman is and always will be part of what being a woman is.You can't change your biology.There's an innate sense too though that is just as much a part of me being female as the fact I have periods every month.Trans women being women too doesn't erase me

There is literally nothing else to being a woman, apart from the biology.

The sexes are not and can not be interchangeable.

Words matter, but even without the word woman we still exist as an objective category.

YY Spartacus.

I don't not want to be in a vulnerable position with males just because I might possibly be attacked. I don't want to be naked in front of my brother, but that's casting no suggestions that I fear my brother will attack me.
Dignity and privacy are every bit as important as safety in a civilized culture. Is the bar for women's boundaries really 'As long as you're not attacked, put up with everything'?

Also I have answered this a million times, that I believe in the right of privacy and dignity, as well as that single sex spaces are safer. No males in female spaces for all those reasons. It's not about trans people, it's about males.

X post with Floral

I just don't see how being inclusive of trans people is "erasing" us

Very few people have an issue with being humane and considerate towards trans identifying people. That's just good manners and human nature. But that is not the same as buying into the ideology that TWAW, and that women should therefore forgo their valued single sex spaces.

Also I have answered this a million times, that I believe in the right of privacy and dignity, as well as that single sex spaces are safer. No males in female spaces for all those reasons. It's not about trans people, it's about males

It is about the differences between males and females, and it is about the inherent biological vulnerability of the female sex in certain regards...which is instinctively registered - and which matters in intimate situations.

Ereshkigalangcleg Sun 12-Jul-20 20:28:39
And that's what it essentially does mean, as any man can say tomorrow that he identifies as a woman, and out of male privilege and into an oppressed class
This is what I was referring to. If it isn't about assault, if it isn't about danger, what is it about?

Why else would you be concerned about trans women being in toilets/etc if it wasn't from a viewpoint of they'll attack you cos trans?

Privacy & dignity
Girls and women have not consented to share intimate space with males who have self identified as females.

Maya Forstater explains this well:

'Single sex spaces are a question of consent'

Single spaces are intended for the use of one sex or the other.
They are often provided to protect everybody’s privacy.

It’s a question of dignity
Being forced to undress, wash, share sleeping accommodation or have personal care with a person of the opposite sex without your consent is degrading.

No one shall be subject to degrading treatment.

Everyone has the right to respect for their private and family life
Article 3 and Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

Shared single sex spaces are often the most practical way to provide lots of people with everyday privacy and dignity.

It’s a question of consent
In the UK the Equality Act 2010 sets out many everyday situations where it is lawful to provide single sex services. This includes:

Circumstances where a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex
Equality Act 2010 – Schedule 3, Paragraph 27 (6)

People using a single sex service have not consented to sharing with members of the opposite sex.

Single sex spaces should be simple
The law does not require that any particular type of service is always provided on a single sex basis.
Mixed sex facilities can be fine too.

You shouldn’t need a law degree, or a PhD in gender studies to work out who can use which facilities. Nor should you have to guess.

To protect everybody’s privacy and dignity there needs to be clarity. (continues)

There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent" (continues)
a-question-of-consent.net/

This is what I was referring to. If it isn't about assault, if it isn't about danger, what is it about?

Do keep up, I've answered it. Not that you've never seen this argument before, it's an argument already made by several other posters and one which is frequently made.

OK, but how does that explain trans men then?As they must know from a young age they "feel" male despite any female socialisation

These 'feelings' are a natural part of growing up and trying to find oneself in the world; especially in a world of gendered expectations. Many young people " try on" opposite gender identities...i did myself.

it is common, also, for nascent lesbians and homosexual boys to feel identity with the opposite sex. They mostly grow out of it.

@Justhadathought

actually trans

What does being "actually trans" really mean? Are we actually suggesting that people can be born in the wrong body?

Suffering from dysphoria used to be classed as a mental health/adaptational issue...not a statement of fact

'Actually trans' was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was someone who truly believes themself to be trans, or someone genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria. As opposed to a simple predator or a creepy AGP male.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought people could actually be born in the wrong body. I was trying to make a distinction between different classes of males based on their motivation for wanting to access female-only spaces. Those who are confused or deluded or dysphoric vs those who are just looking for a way to access women for the purposes of sexual assault or voyeurism or just to be creepy.

But in my opinion, no males should be in women-only spaces no matter what their motivation is for wanting to be there.

Biology part of being a woman is and always will be part of what being a woman is.You can't change your biology

You've answered your own question. Except for the fact that 'being a woman' is not just in part biological. It is totally biological. Identity and feelings have got nothing to do with it.

Actually trans' was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was someone who truly believes themself to be trans, or someone genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria. As opposed to a simple predator or a creepy AGP male

I understand that. I was just using your post as a point for further discussion. Sorry! i do think there is a danger, though, in this debate, of actually buying into the concept that 'being trans' is a material fact, rather than a personal feeling or identity.

If it isn't about assault, if it isn't about danger, what is it about?

Do you believe that all spaces (toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons etc) should be mixed sex? And that there is never any need for anywhere to be for one sex only?

If you do, I can sort of see why you don't understand our arguments on here. But if you think there is ever any need for any single-sex spaces, can you explain why they are important?

And then you have answered your own question.