A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

*interested not.intestinal

The centre of this topic is trans perspectives. Before it got brigaded, it was one of the most interesting threads I'd ever seen, on any board. Once that happened (funnily enough, about 30mins after I de-lurked ) it became just the same few people agreeing with themselves again.

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong place?

You probably don't know, but there is an entire board devoted to LGBT. Two actually.

This thread has featured many trans perspectives. Two transwomen actually on the thread, film clips of at least two or three more, one transman. And an entire current article showing the perspectives of many transmen.

All of which will be viewed from a feminist perspective, from the feminists, on this feminist board.

Which is why it was nice to hear the "other side" before it got "brigaded" by long screeds, articles, and links and the usuals all talking at each other, patronising people posting and drowning them all out.
You don't usually hear from others and made a nice change and thought provoking rather than the usual echo chamber.
If not trans, is it not good to listen to others, their experiences, instead of "but what about THiS person, see not so good is it?
Heavy bias posting. Not first hand trans experiences.
Sometimes like on this thread, it's nice to just "listen" to other voices/trans experiences.
I think so anyway

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Threads move on? The self awareness on here or lack of is gobsmacking - that's cries of derail! usually, double standards much?!

You post as though we're all the same person, or a collection of socks, Lemonade! The fact is that different posters will have genuinely different views.

Anyone can post anything. As long as it stays within the rules.

It's utterly bizarre to think they can't.

Feminist board, feminist perspective. LGBT board, LGBT perspective.

Totally baffling how people, who don't want to read what other people post, think they should stop posting it, on that basis.

This is the feminist board. If a thread is posted on the feminist board then feminists will comment on it from a feminist perspective.

Rowan - you're just posting link after link after link like some self appointed librarian bot.

R0 meticulously evidences feminist arguments. She is an FWR legend. You, not so much. Scroll past, if you wish to remain uninformed.

^The overwhelming majority of extracts I have shared on this thread are either the experiences of people who identify as transgender, have identified as transgender or have intimate partners who have done so.
Their voices are important too.^

Those are the wrong kind of trans experiences, R0.

We can't mention or call anything out if they're a "legend?"

Wow, hero worship idol blinkers
That's ...... rational.

Did I say you can't mention it? Don't think so.

@R0wantrees

I just read it, really feel for them. fortunately I don’t relate at all to any of their experiences really

Do you understand why people might suggest a little caution is a good thing, though? Before making irreversible changes to your body?

alexk3 I do hope that young transmen / non binary females take heed of the increasing number of reports by young women such as Thomasina & Ben GNC Centric about the inappropriate coersion by older males who identify as transgender.
Age and sex will always be relevent factors in the context of abuse/control dynamics.
Many women (including myself) do not become fully aware of the subtleties of male patterns of abuse/control. Its in female-only spaces where awareness and consciousness has always been raised.

Ben GNC Centric wrote about her experiences of inapropriate behaviour by older men at an LGBT+ youth group.
4thwavenow.com/2019/01/26/my-trans-youth-group-experience-with-morgan-page/

@Ereshkigalangcleg

yeah of course but I am being cautious

@R0wantrees

yes it's bad that that happens, nothing I've ever seen personally but of course it's not good

yes it's bad that that happens, nothing I've ever seen personally but of course it's not good

Some abuse/control dynamics will only be seen once we are aware that they exist.

Uncommonground Media article by DrEm (for example) describes the patterns of 'forced teaming' and 'negging'

(extract)
"Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.1 It builds trust when none should be there.Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement." (continues)
uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

The idea is that most women probably like their secondary sex characteristics and would probably then feel uncomfortable if they one day did not have them any more...

Erm.... You say you grew up with mainly females around you. Didn’t you notice that most of them hate their bodies?!

I don’t know a single woman who is happy with the way she looks, and wouldn’t rather swap out her ‘curves’ and wobbly bits for something firmer and more muscular without needing to put in any real effort! Admittedly penises (& balls) aren’t the most attractive things, but then neither are vulvas. Most of us aren’t as bothered about our own boobs as our DPs are. He’d appreciate them so much more than me, it would be a shame to keep them if we got to swap.

As for the reproductive parts, many of us feel blessed to have been able to grow a baby and many say they wouldn’t want to give that up, but the practicalities of periods, monitoring fertility, pregnancy scares, miscarriages, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding etc is something we only ever accept as a glorious party of womanhood because we have no choice.

If I could be me in a man’s body and my DP could have all the shit work of being female, dealing with periods, peri menopause etc and we’d still end up with children, I’d swap in a heartbeat. That doesn’t make me dysphoric, it makes me bloody sensible!

yeah of course but I am being cautious

Glad to hear it. But this isn't all about you. Those women's voices are important.

Erm...hmmconfused. You say you grew up with mainly females around you. Didn’t you notice that most of them hate their bodies?! I don’t know a single woman who is happy with the way she looks, and wouldn’t rather swap out her ‘curves’ and wobbly bits for something firmer and more muscular without needing to put in any real effort!

I grew up around "lots of women" too and my experience couldn't be more different.
I certainly never noticed people "hating their bodies".
As a woman myself, I can honestly say that I can't see this in myself either.
I'm happy being me. It sounds like a self confidence thing to me with what you're saying women are like - why would you hate your body?
You're you.

As for the reproductive parts, many of us feel blessed to have been able to grow a baby and many say they wouldn’t want to give that up, but the practicalities of periods, monitoring fertility, pregnancy scares, miscarriages, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding etc is something we only ever accept as a glorious party of womanhood because we have no choice

If I could be me in a man’s body and my DP could have all the shit work of being female, dealing with periods, peri menopause etc and we’d still end up with children, I’d swap in a heartbeat
I wouldn't. Yes it's shit having periods, labour bloody hurts, but it's my female body.
If I was to wake up in a male body, you can bet I'd be horrified and "it's not me, I'm female bodied, I'm female!"
All the male bodily functions - no. Just no.
It'd be bloody terrifying being in the "wrong" body and maybe that's why I can empathise and see the other "side" more?
I dunno

Plenty of women have issues with body image. It's great that you don't. The point is that being a woman is often not a picnic when it comes to being comfortable in one's own skin. For many reasons.

I'm not sure why we're expected to privilege your personal anecdata over other women's lived experiences?

I'm not sure why we're expected to privilege your personal anecdata over other women's lived experiences?

Er... my experience is a lived experience too, or doesn't it fit with the agenda?! Why is it "personal anecdata"?
The others on the thread with their "lived experiences" is personal anecdata too.
Or do we all have to be of the same opinion/have had the same experiences?
Erm, no, soz about that.

It'd be bloody terrifying being in the "wrong" body and maybe that's why I can empathise and see the other "side" more?

So if a person was severely distressed by their left leg, and was convinced it should stop just above the knee would your response be

a) we can fix that for you
b) you need help to come to terms with your body?

Because doctors have gone down the route of a) in the past but were stopped as it was unethical.

I would say the transgender issue is ethically worse, because if you amputate a limb the result is a person with an amputated limb. If you give someone a mastectomy and feed them testosterone they still aren't a man, you then have to get everyone else to humour them.

Such a course of action is barbaric.

Oh, and you were saying that your experience of only imagining being in the wrong body was more relevant than the many women who have felt upset with their bodies. How does that work?

Because you were trying to use your personal experience to imply (challenging the poster's claim) that most women don't have problems with body image at some time or another. It's really quite common that women do, and threads where women with problems with their body image are really very easily found here, on this female centred site.

It'd be bloody terrifying being in the "wrong" body and maybe that's why I can empathise and see the other "side" more?

Yes, a number of science fiction scenarios would be terrifying. If you woke up in a man's body tomorrow it would be very disconcerting indeed, I imagine. Reassuringly it's unlikely.

Because you were trying to use your personal experience to imply (challenging the poster's claim) that most women don't have problems with body image at some time or another

Really wasn't - just saying that definitely isn't MY experience, I fully accept that a lot of women hate their bodies (here, not my words) Didn’t you notice that most of them hate their bodies?!
I''m sure a lot do, but to say most is a pretty big generalisation.
I was using MY experience as a woman growing up, that I didn't see people hating their bodies, and I don't either and neither did they (and if they did they didn't show it.)
My experience is just as valid.
I personally find that pretty sad (as in upsetting) that if it's true that most women hate their bodies and would opt out of it if they could.
As there's a lot out there too that don't feel like that.
We don't all feel the same.
I love being female, there's more to me being female than periods and pushing a baby out, and would find it pretty distressing waking up as a man in a man's body.
The disconnect must be horrendous being trans