A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

I think my concern right now is what women feel and experience. How women are being marginalised and demonised about their own sex. Maybe, when the balance starts to be redressed, which it will be, then I will think about other things.

This ^^
I am also always mindful of the many women who identify as transwidows, who created a single supportive space here on MN FWR where their voices might (often for the first time) be heard.

Website:
www.transwidowsvoices.org/

Thread 1
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Thread 2
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3471122-trans-widows-escape-committee-2-the-trans-widows-strike-back

Thread 3
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3668898-trans-widows-escape-committee-3-rise-of-the-trans-widows

Thread 4
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3898348-Trans-Widows-Escape-Committee-4-A-New-Hope

Uncommon Ground Media
'Which Side Are You On, Girls? The Role of Trans Widows in Feminism'

(extract)
"I am a Trans Widow, I married a man who later decided that he wanted to “live as a woman” and so our 10 year marriage ended.

When this happened to me, my sanity was saved by feminism. Feminism gave me the tools to analyse my experiences through the lens of male entitlement, and gave me the motivation to help other Trans Widows who wanted to leave unhappy relationships.

But this could have been very different.

Imagine if my ex-husband, instead of being a Trans Rights Activist, claimed to be a gender critical feminist, or a Lesbian, or the acceptable face of Autogynephilia?

Imagine if I had never been able to connect with other Trans Widows on Mumsnet, because he got there first. Imagine if he wrote articles which were reposted by women all over social media, lauding him as stunning and brave, and imagine if women queued up to praise him.

Imagine if he spoke from platforms at women’s meetings, arranged by organisations that purported to give a voice to women. Imagine if he used forced teaming to build up a network of personal friendships and obligations with prominent academic feminists.

Where would this have left me when I needed help from women and from feminism? Where would this leave my daughter, and other children of transitioners when they grow older and begin to try and make sense of their experiences?

Imagine a woman’s liberation movement so concerned with being seen to not be bigoted that they would choose him over me. When you clapped his speech, would you wonder if there was a wife at home, looking after the children and putting on a brave face to the world?

I ask a simple question- who is more important to the Womens’ Liberation movement: me or my ex-husband? Which of us do you chose? Because you can’t have both. The inclusion of transsexual “allies” in feminism, excludes trans widows.

This is a question that the leaders of some feminist groups seem unwilling to answer, but it is one that cuts to the heart of the debate over women’s rights and gender identity.

How many women are being silenced because their voices are given lower priority in feminism than that of their husband, father, son or male acquaintance? All of the transsexual “allies” have women in the shadows." (continues)
uncommongroundmedia.com/which-side-are-you-on-girls-trans-widows/

Children of Transitioners
childrenoftransitioners.org/

And a lot of 'transitioning' is non-medical

Like what?

And a lot of 'transitioning' is non-medical
Like what?

Magdalen Berns examined Alex Drummond's ideas about this in May 2016

'What Kind Of Fools Do Transgender UK and Stonewall Take Us For?'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK7zisjoDk

And yet here you are

Gosh, 'faux concern' sure is expensive these days given the thousands and thousands of pounds women have donated for people like Child A, Sue Evans, Safe Schools Alliance, etc.

Trans men are damsels in distress. Detransitioners are just meat for the grinder. The faux-concern is obnoxious.

It should not be surprising that women posting on the feminism & women's rights board of a parenting website are focussed and concerned for other women and girls.

That some men find sisterhood and solidarity threatening is nothing new.

New Statesman article by Glosswitch
10 MAY 2018
'The demonisation of Mumsnet is just the latest incarnation of witch-hunting
Naturally, it frightens people to think of what a group of mothers might actually demand.'
(extract)
“The deliberate withdrawal of women from men has almost always been seen as a potentially dangerous or hostile act, a conspiracy, a subversion, a needless and grotesque thing.” Thus wrote Adrienne Rich in 1976’s Of Woman Born, her seminal exploration of the politics of motherhood. From the workers gossiping in the spinning circle to old wives passing down knowledge of contraception and abortion, women gathered in isolation have long been considered untrustworthy. What might they be saying? What could they be plotting? And how, above all, might they be controlled?" (continues)
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

I wondered if you had any concerns yourself MadBadDaddy. I posted my questions at 9.25 if you want to give your opinion. Seeing as you are here,

It's interesting that a thread littered with concern about transmen, detransitjoners, lesbians and gender non conforming women is just dismissed as 'faux'.

I wonder who has to be centred for concern to be seen as real?

Still mulling over Floral's comment about dominance displays.

Isn't it interesting that for some individuals, after a long period of male socialisation, "women saying no" looks to them like a dominance display. (Either that or it's a classic case of DARVO.)

Coming here to learn anything about trans people is like going to a BNP website and asking about foreigners

The first time I heard a male TS compare women who posted on Mumsnet with BNP racists etc was in April 2018

India Willoughby for Pink News

'Britain’s rampant transphobia has me worried for my life'
(extract)
"Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.

As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution

Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.” (continues)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200525185458/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200525185458/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/

This followed an interview by Julia Hartley Brewer with Willoughby & Justine Roberts prompted by Mumsnet's public commitment not to be bullied by "transgender “thought police”"

Times
'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'
(extract)
The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.

Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry. They have pressurised dozens of venues into cancelling meetings on the subject." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q

TalkRadio: Julia Hartley-Brewer: Major row erupts while talking about transgender activists and Mumsnet

Have to say, how is it MBD "silencing, derailing" etc?
It was a thread for trans people experiences.
It's now being spammed by usual regular with videos and long winding article after article after article after article!

Interestingly, India Willoughby is still perpetrating the idea that Mumsnet FWR acts as a 'recruiting sergeant' ascribing J K Rowling's "transphobia" to being educated by "a well known parenting site", the 'proof' apparently being her mention of clownfish!

15th June 2020 Good Morning Britain
'Is the JK Rowing Anti-Trans Backlash Fair?'
from 8:35

IW "well I do actually think she'stransphobic, I'll be absolutely honest
about that I like it but I think that's down to where she's been educated. I know for a fact that she's got a lot of information from a well known parenting site which is well known, as you know, for being a recruiting sergeant these days. It's been colonized if you like by the
the trans exclusionary radical feminists" (continues)

I mean there's some very oblique terms in that long essay JK Rowling did. I mean there's a reference there to clownfish. Now clownfish are amazing. Clownfish can actually change sex naturally, incredible! But ts used in certain areas as an insult towards trans people so on the face of it, I mean there's an innocent reference clownfish but JK Rowling knows the weights that clownfish carries yet she used that thing"

10 JUNE 2020
'J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues'
www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

It was a thread for trans people experiences.
It's now being spammed by usual regular with videos and long winding article

LemonadeAndDaisyChains
The overwhelming majority of extracts I have shared on this thread are either the experiences of people who identify as transgender, have identified as transgender or have intimate partners who have done so.
Their voices are important too.

Their voices are important too

and speak to the OP's question:

I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

So my comment is automatically followed by another practically half page long screed.
Trans people's own experiences?
Not regulars with their corrective thought screeds.
It's turned into the usual handful talking at each other and over and patronising whilst telling trans people what they are or aren't.
Sad really, was an interesting thread

LemonadeAndDaisyChains
It was a cross post.
I usually scroll past your comments just as you can do mine if they are not of interest.

@Datun

It's interesting that a thread littered with concern about transmen, detransitjoners, lesbians and gender non conforming women is just dismissed as 'faux'.

I wonder who has to be centred for concern to be seen as real?

Suggestion for a future topic "I have concerns about transmen, detransitjoners, lesbians and gender non conforming women" and I wouldn't go near it.

The centre of this topic is trans perspectives. Before it got brigaded, it was one of the most interesting threads I'd ever seen, on any board. Once that happened (funnily enough, about 30mins after I de-lurked ) it became just the same few people agreeing with themselves again.

[quote SpartacusAutisticus]This is a feminism and women's rights board. Centring the needs and perspectives of women is it's premise.

Other forums are available if one wants to centre other needs and perspectives, for example:

www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/

www.pistonheads.com/

forums.digitalspy.com/[/quote]
Yep.

And besides, all threads move on. They don't remain centred on one topic, let alone person. And the constant efforts to drag it back to discussing that one person's perspectives... I mean, it looks a tad bit self-involved, to say the least. No thread is all about any individual and their views unless it's an AMA - there's a page for that elsewhere on Mumsnet, though , if that's what a poster is interested in? Otherwise, it's a discussion, not a seminar.

@madbaddaddy

absolutely love contra! cannot believe you are still doing this, you’re more patient than me haha. shame how the thread’s turned out imo

alexk3
I wondered if you had read today's Sunday Times piece featuring a number of women's experiences of being transgender.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3965451-the-times-the-detransitioners

sharetoken (for free access)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/25f95e06-bf8f-11ea-9ea2-5a548b3aebca?shareToken=a5fb9ca37a2581ef711137892c097192

Threads move on?
The self awareness on here or lack of is gobsmacking - that's cries of derail! usually, double standards much?!

I am interested in your experience @MadBadDaddy. You must have missed when I posted this earlier.

These boards are primarily concerned about women, but I am intestinal in the questions below, seeing as you are here to talk.

Reading alex's thoughts, I was very concerned about how young they sounded, how little life experience they really have and how what they describe is much like many older lesbians remember feeling. It's one reason so many older women are concerned about young women transitioning too soon.

You have mentioned that you have children, so you experienced the family benefits of a straight male before embarking on transitioning. You still have your penis as well, and have commented on looking at large penises.

From your point of view, do you think your life would have been better if you could have fully transitioned, removing your own penis etc at a much younger age? Or do you feel that your trajectory of being a fertile straight man before becoming a straight woman with a penis is a better one?
Are you concerned about young men transitioning before they are fully mature?

Rowan - you're just posting link after link after link like some self appointed librarian bot.
It was for trans voices? It was really interesting hearing other people's experiences until it went the same way as usual with same voices just talking at each other.