A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

LemonadaAndDaisyChains to me it seems like you contradicted yourself in your post there.
Firstly you said, 'why would you hate your body? You're you!'
And then you said: 'It'd be bloody terrifying being in the wrong body'

So, do you think someone can develop from conception in the wrong body? Or would you suggest that you shouldn't hate your body, you're 'you'.
Personally I don't think someone can be in the wrong body, we evolve from a cluster of cells and at no point is someone else walking around in the body I was meant to have.
But surely understanding gender dysphoria could also lead you to understand why many women hate their bodies too, because of the stereotypical expectations forced on us by a very gendered society?

My experience is just as valid.

Yes, for you. Not to dismiss other women's body image problems in the manner of "I've never been harassed by men in the street so because it didn't happen to me it's not a big problem!"

OK, see "waking up as" being read as science fiction, cross post.
Didn't mean it like that - was just one way of putting it.
I knew as a child, even though I liked so called "boys stuff" (whatever that means) that I was still a girl.
It's something you "know" you are inside. Nothing to do with what people tell you.
I'd still have felt the same as a kid with the "wrong" body.
Not true for everyone before anyone objects, but for me.

It's something you "know" you are inside. Nothing to do with what people tell you.

If you (general you) were a girl, and have known it since you vaguely understood what the difference between the two sexes are, it doesn't prove that you just "knew" it, because you've always been female. You can't separate that from your ineffable sense that you were internally a girl, or any kind of gendered soul concept.

to me it seems like you contradicted yourself in your post there.
Firstly you said, 'why would you hate your body? You're you!'
And then you said: 'It'd be bloody terrifying being in the wrong body'

Not contradicting
As in being female isn't just pushing out babies or bleeding once a month.
Yes, it's a huge part, but there's more to it - that's not all there is.
"Why would you hate being in your own body? You're you!"
Yes, if you truly "felt" like a woman (whatever that means) and not the opposite sex.
Yes, but if that female "more to it" I have is present in trans men (feel they're a man but body says otherwise, or other way round with trans men) that would be terrifying - it obviously wouldn't feel like you?
As you wouldn't "feel" like your sex.
I can't even begin to imagine feeling like I needed to be a man.
I personally think there's so much more to it than anyone can explain, just my opinion

Babies are generally socialised as female from seconds outside the womb, and possibly inside it if the sex of the foetus is known.

Thanks Lemonade - it's clear that we have very different experiences of being female.

I don't know what would make me different from a man, apart from my female body, which means I have been subjected to years of sexism, misogyny and gender stereotyping.

I have no gender identity of me as a woman, which is why i don't agree that someone is a woman because they 'feel' like one.

^As in being female isn't just pushing out babies or bleeding once a month.
Yes, it's a huge part, but there's more to it - that's not all there is.^

What is it? Being female. Your personal inner sense? Being female is simply being a member of the female sex. It's not a club for some males who aren't happy with masculine stereotypes to join.

Not all women and girls have periods or choose to or are able to give birth. But their lives are affected at some time or another by those biological realities.

Babies are generally socialised as female from seconds outside the womb, and possibly inside it if the sex of the foetus is known

OK, but how does that explain trans men then?
As they must know from a young age they "feel" male despite any female socialisation.

Yes, if you truly "felt" like a woman (whatever that means)

How would you know? You can only know, as a male, that you don't relate to what you think other males feel.

OK, but how does that explain trans men then?
As they must know from a young age they "feel" male despite any female socialisation.

All trans people are essentially rejecting what they perceive as the socialised reality of their sex though.

And again they can't know they feel male, as they have no reference point.

I know what I want even if I've not explained it massively well, nothing anyone says on here is going to change my mind really

Absolutely and you have explained it very well. Lots of happy trans men out there.

I’m just pointing out that there are also growing numbers of people who thought that’s what they wanted, and then once the T really took effect the experience was different to what they expected. The experience of day to day encounters with people really thinking they are a man and reacting In ways they maybe didn’t expect or prepare for.

I’m not trying to change your mind. Unfortunately for those that do regret it I’m not sure if their minds could have been changed anyway.

And again they can't know they feel male, as they have no reference point

That's only true if there's nothing else to you being female apart from your periods, birth and body, or as a man being just your biological parts and bodily functions.
As we can see it's clearly more than that for others.

You have not demonstrated that there is anything else.

I think there's obviously an infinite range of individual lived experiences for people, which makes it all the more infuriating that we are all meant to sign up to the idea that your 'gender identity' is what defines what rights and protections you deserve, and not your sex.

As a female who is not feminine, who enjoys contact sports, who is sometimes lazy, aggressive and not at all nurturing, the idea that I have to 'feel' like a woman to actually BE one is confusing and also offensive, since no-one can explain to me what it actually DOES feel like to be a woman.

I can accept lots of people don't feel this way, but do not remove my rights and call me a hateful bigot just for feeling the way I do, and wanting to protect vulnerable women and girls.

[quote R0wantrees]yes it's bad that that happens, nothing I've ever seen personally but of course it's not good

Some abuse/control dynamics will only be seen once we are aware that they exist.

Uncommonground Media article by DrEm (for example) describes the patterns of 'forced teaming' and 'negging'

(extract)
"Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.1 It builds trust when none should be there.Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement." (continues)
uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/[/quote]
R0wantrees
uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

I found that article quite disturbing and bigoted.

• There is literally no mention of Transgender people whatsoever, only 'transgenderists' promoting 'transgenderism' (most trans people aren't activists. Being trans is not an ideology)
• There is only one purpose of 'transgenderism' and that is to abuse and control women. If an action seems nice, it isn't. If someone seems honest, they aren't.
• All trans women are therefore lying, manipulative predators (and trans men and female allies are their gullible victims). and Jimmy Saville is our hero.

The irony is, by disagreeing with it or you, I'm conforming to the articles definition of manipulative abuse, which seems to be defined as "anything a trans woman does or says"

I'm on this website looking for evidence of humanity. Still looking.

How does anyone do that though? Anyone who does have all the answers would no doubt be groundbreaking and instantly famous

You cannot say that there is definitely an ineffable woman feeling that a biological male can feel without having clear parameters, and being able to detach it from your own perception of knowing since birth that you are female. Which you cannot. You can have your personal belief in innate gender identity, but it proves nothing. It's an ideology.

I'm on this website looking for evidence of humanity. Still looking.

Hilarious.

As a female who is not feminine, who enjoys contact sports, who is sometimes lazy, aggressive and not at all nurturing, the idea that I have to 'feel' like a woman to actually BE one is confusing and also offensive, since no-one can explain to me what it actually DOES feel like to be a woman.

Ahhh, it's nothing to do with "feeling" like a woman in the sense of liking sports, or not being caring, or being lazy!
Of course women can do anything like that, who's to say they are only "men" traits?
I like blue, more likely to wear steel toe cap type boots than high heels, like contact sports (well I did before I became unfit lol)
that's not it.
It's like you "know" what you are.
As I said, hard to explain. Not feelings or not liking pink or babies or whatever.

Top bit was a quote, forgot to bold. Whoops

Ihaventgottimeforthis

I haven't called you anything of the sort.

As a female who is not feminine, who enjoys contact sports, who is sometimes lazy, aggressive and not at all nurturing, the idea that I have to 'feel' like a woman to actually BE one is confusing and also offensive, since no-one can explain to me what it actually DOES feel like to be a woman.

This. 2020 gender identity theory is incoherent, illogical, poorly defined pseudoscience, in large part founded on ill-informed gotcha arguments by people on Twitter. it's about as intellectually valid as reading head bumps.

As I said, hard to explain.

Yes. There's a reason for that.

Must have cross posted as I've just said that it's nothing to do with liking contact sports or blue or whatever.