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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

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MadBadDaddy · 10/07/2020 15:18

Datun
Can I ask you if a "cure" was found for same-sex attraction, whether you would be pleased?
If someone funded research into such a "cure" would you support it? Contribute to it?
Do you not see how more than a few of the posts on this board could collectively be described as some sort of amateur hour conversion therapy dressed up as concern?

Datun · 10/07/2020 15:22

MBD I've asked that question of several transwomen. Two of whom said absolutely not, they don't think it should be called gender dysphoria, but rather gender euphoria.

And one who said definitely yes, because their dysphoria was crippling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2020 15:24

Interesting, Datun.

etalb1 · 10/07/2020 15:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I find it rather simplistic to talk about sexuality solely in terms of sex and "genital preference". Being attracted to women is not only about genitals and sex, but about personality, mannerisms etc. I worry that when many people think of trans women, they only picture men in dresses in women's toilets, when that is not the case. And so when people think of lesbians being attracted to trans women, they envisage a woman being attracted to simply a man in a dress, and not a woman. I'm not sure how relationships are supposed to work is the first thing you think about when you meet someone is their genitalia, should it not be about the person? I know lesbians can have genital preference, but I don't believe that anyone is going to label them transphobic for it. Swiping left on a trans person on tinder bc you have a genital preference is not transphobic, matching with them only to barrage them with hate for being trans is.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 10/07/2020 15:26

Can I ask you if a "cure" was found for same-sex attraction..

But same sex attraction isn't an illness or anything you'd visit a doctor about.

It is not a good analogy. And yes, I did see the quotation marks around the word cure, but still.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 10/07/2020 15:28

I find it rather simplistic to talk about sexuality solely in terms of sex and "genital preference"

Who mentioned genital preference apart from you just now?

Datun · 10/07/2020 15:31

I know lesbians can have genital preference, but I don't believe that anyone is going to label them transphobic for it. Swiping left on a trans person on tinder bc you have a genital preference is not transphobic, matching with them only to barrage them with hate for being trans is.

I'm afraid you're behind the times, in that case. You might want take a look at the barrage of hate directed at lesbians here.

lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

I mean, do people think we're making this up??

Also, I'd be very interested to know what sort of 'mannerisms and personality' constitutes lesbianism.

Are you going to write that into law? How are you going to write mannerisms and personality into a protected characteristic?

Jeez.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2020 15:35

BaronessBrighterThanYou

To be fair that was me. Good of them to prove my point by using that term to describe same sex attraction.

They're also flat out wrong that people don't call lesbians transphobic for exclusive same sex attraction.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

A thread I made with some examples. I could add many more now.

etalb1 · 10/07/2020 15:35

@Kantastic

I do see where you are coming from. But how then would people who are attracted to trans people, not because they are trans, define themselves? Lesbians who happen to be attracted to a trans woman can't redefine themselves for one woman. If I had been lesbian for 30 years and found myself attracted to a trans woman, I couldn't redefine myself. There would have to be a new word for lesbians who include trans women in their lesbianism, without the certainty that they will ever be with a trans woman. That would also further isolate and alienate trans women from biological women as a whole different gender. It seems cruel.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2020 15:36

People seem more attached to the labels and words than the actual coherent meaning of these labels and words, frankly.

OvaHere · 10/07/2020 15:38

"Genital preference" sounds an awful lot like "lifestyle choice".

Something that a person could be educated or encouraged out of.

Lesbians and gay men are being called transphobic everywhere for being same sex attracted. Presumably this also applies to heterosexual people too although they generally get much less abuse. I find it strange you haven't noticed this.

Attached is an example from twitter. Presumably there are at least 116k people who believe this.

A question for Transmen and Transwomen
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2020 15:44

The BBC published an article a couple of weeks ago about Pride. In it they said:

"Discrimination also extends to transphobic preferences in the dating world: from cisgender gay men not wanting to date trans men .."

They got a huge backlash for this and subsequently removed it. That's because it's about men, I guess.

OvaHere · 10/07/2020 15:48

That would also further isolate and alienate trans women from biological women as a whole different gender.

Transwomen and women only have gender in common if you believe in the concept of gender. The concept of gender seems to be wholly based on the idea of feminine/masculine brains and an adherence to strong gender stereotypes.

If you don't believe that and find it regressive and sexist then you are just left with biological sex, a characteristic which transwomen and women can never share.

UniversalAunt · 10/07/2020 15:48

@alexk3 Flowers Thank you for sharing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2020 15:49

They got a huge backlash for this and subsequently removed it.

Sorry, just to clarify, they removed the homophobic line. The rest is still up.

BaronessSlighterThanThou · 10/07/2020 15:58

But how then would people who are attracted to trans people, not because they are trans, define themselves?

Any way they want - let's face it, they are very good at making up new words; they do it all the time!

The word lesbian is already taken.

Datun · 10/07/2020 15:59

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The BBC published an article a couple of weeks ago about Pride. In it they said:

"Discrimination also extends to transphobic preferences in the dating world: from cisgender gay men not wanting to date trans men .."

They got a huge backlash for this and subsequently removed it. That's because it's about men, I guess.

It's it extraordinary that the BBC, which we pay for, don't just blindly think they can breach the equality act, but actually re-write it backwards!
etalb1 · 10/07/2020 16:00

@Datun @BaronessBrighterThanYou @OvaHere

I admit I ought to have looked into it more. I wasn't aware that it was such an issue for many lesbians. Personally, I have never known anyone to experience that sort of harassment and I have never experienced it either. I also don't spend a huge amount of time on GC forums so wasn't aware of it. I don't think anyone has the right to comment upon anyone else's "genital preference" - after all it is a very private issue. But turn that around and I don't see why lesbians should be able to say that other lesbians cannot define themselves as lesbian if they have a sexual/romantic relationship with a trans woman, bc of their genitalia.

@Datun - I know I could have phrased that better. It is very hard to put into words however why you might like women and not men, or men but not women. 'Mannerisms' was the only word I could think for it.

Datun · 10/07/2020 16:00
  • That was meant to say blithely - I don't think they're doing anything blindly.
BaronessSlighterThanThou · 10/07/2020 16:01

* ...*from cisgender gay men not wanting to date trans men ..

Or as it's known in the business: the harrop conundrum

Datun · 10/07/2020 16:05

[quote etalb1]@Datun @BaronessBrighterThanYou @OvaHere

I admit I ought to have looked into it more. I wasn't aware that it was such an issue for many lesbians. Personally, I have never known anyone to experience that sort of harassment and I have never experienced it either. I also don't spend a huge amount of time on GC forums so wasn't aware of it. I don't think anyone has the right to comment upon anyone else's "genital preference" - after all it is a very private issue. But turn that around and I don't see why lesbians should be able to say that other lesbians cannot define themselves as lesbian if they have a sexual/romantic relationship with a trans woman, bc of their genitalia.

@Datun - I know I could have phrased that better. It is very hard to put into words however why you might like women and not men, or men but not women. 'Mannerisms' was the only word I could think for it.[/quote]
If you are maintaining that lesbianism can constitute sexual attraction between a man and a woman, or two men, you're fucking over lesbians.

It's not difficult. Lesbianism is same-sex attraction. That's what it is.

Kit19 · 10/07/2020 16:11

i do genuinely find the genital preference thing baffling

im a straight woman - crudely im only interested in having sex with someone with a cock. I would never ever in a million years want to have sex with someone who has a vulva/breasts.

i dont get all this 'im attraced to xyz mannerisms and personality and their genitals dont matter'. surely if you want to have a sexual relationship with someone genitals are going to come into play at some point?

midgebabe · 10/07/2020 16:16

I guess I don't feel I have to feel the same way, I can accept that different people feel attraction in different ways. For some people, a persons sex may be irrelevant.

But for many people it is highly relevant, and I suspect it's most common for people to have a specific genital set in mind when it comes to sexual relations , simply because of reproductive needs

Thelnebriati · 10/07/2020 16:22

@etalb1

turn that around and I don't see why lesbians should be able to say that other lesbians cannot define themselves as lesbian if they have a sexual/romantic relationship with a trans woman, bc of their genitalia.

Because to be protected in law you have to have a legal definition. The Equality Act has to be able to define 'lesbian' so that any discrimination against lesbians can be prosecuted.

The Equality Act 2010 names sex and sexual orientation as protected characteristics, and states that lesbians are women who are same sex attracted.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

MiladyRenata · 10/07/2020 16:31

But the law does not define "sex" as birth assigned sex.