A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

I'm not talking any more about it because I am slightly losing the will to live - a man attracted to men (trans or not) is gay, and a woman attracted to women (trans or not) is gay. That's what I think and it's not going to change

So you'd rather stick your fingers in your ears than have difficult discussions about the societal and global ramifications?

@SpiritOfEnquiry

thank you! I imagine I won't be about much longer haha but it's been craic

@OvaHere

I just don't see the point when no one is going to change their mind. I know all the GC arguments and I just do not agree, so what is the point in going over it again and again? I'd rather answer people's questions about dysphoria etc. than have a pointless discussion where no one will change their view.

OvaHere Yeah, a bit like this.

Any discussion like this reaches a point of having to agree to disagree for the time being. Ended respectfully, hopefully things that have been discussed on both sides then have time to percolate a bit and you might approach the next discussion from a slightly different angle (if not position).

A battering ram approach is likely to have the opposite effect, in my experience.

I know all the GC arguments and I just do not agree, so what is the point in going over it again and again?

Exactly

[quote alexk3]@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

thanks I was a bit confused, am really just trying to answer questions, nothing is mean to be patronising etc. Probably will stop soon because taking its toll a bit[/quote]
There are issues and there are people. This thread was much more constructive when it was more about the people and less about the issues. I think you've covered the topic as defined by the OP and shouldn't feel like you have to be responsible for every related issue under the sun.

Take the rest of the day off! x

I'd rather answer people's questions about dysphoria etc. than have a pointless discussion where no one will change their view.

Change your view = agree that sex is not real.

Got that. Sorry, not pretending for anyone.

Indeed, we have had quite a few transmen post in FWR, also non-binary, and a memorable one by someone who was asexual.

As with most of the posters, they are generally met with civility.

But for every person who posts there are many more lurking. So when most people are addressing these issues, they are bearing that in mind.

It's not just for the benefit of either the OP, or necessarily other people on the thread.

It's to include anyone who doesn't feel capable of posting.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains & @MadBadDaddy

thank you both!

@BaronessBrighterThanYou

As I've said, will agree to disagree (at least on my part)

I know all the GC arguments and I just do not agree

TBF, you said you knew nothing about the prison argument. So are you saying that you disagree now you know more?

@DickKerrLadies

I still don't know enough about it because I'm not going to take all my info from this board (and it's only been a few hours!). I'm not going to change my view on trans women being lesbians. I don't see the point in the argument continuing because it's not helping anyone.

I see. Sorry, I thought you meant all the GC arguments in general rather than WRT homosexuality. My mistake.

Thanks for engaging, alexk3

I've been reading rather than posting, but I wanted to acknowledge it takes courage to enter in a discussion when most posters are on the other side of the debate!

This thread was much more constructive when it was more about the people and less about the issues
Agree, it was good to hear different voices and experiences

@DickKerrLadies

no worries, I'm always interested in GC arguments becuase I like knowing all sides of things, I just agree with earlier posters that perhaps the discussion was more productive (at least in my view) when I was slightly opening people's minds on how dysphoria works, not re-hashing various trans issues? If that makes sense :).

@EdgeOfACoin

thank you! no worries

sory feel 'opening people's minds' sounds patronising and I don;t mean it like that! Just that some posters have said they've thought about it in ways they hadn't before and that's my aim really

I personally don't find ending on a note whereby the agency and boundaries of same sex attracted people is written off as a pointless argument especially respectful. It's just #nodebate all over again.

I appreciate alex may feel a bit swamped but really in life you do have to be able to back up the position you hold. Most of us here can do that for the full 40 pages of a thread.

I also appreciate that alex is young, a lot younger than myself or others here, so I don't take it personally that they've had enough of engaging with us. I do hold some hope that alex takes time to think about why older women are concerned about them as an individual but also for the wider reaching implications.

I personally don't find ending on a note whereby the agency and boundaries of same sex attracted people is written off as a pointless argument especially respectful. It's just #nodebate all over again.

No, I agree. It is shameful how much lesbians and to a lesser extent gay men are being pressured to deny exclusive same sex attraction or treat it as a "genital preference" which is potentially transphobic. It's homophobia.

Back to the topic at hand, it seems to be quite common for transpeople to say that rather than identifying as the opposite sex, what they experience is a feeling of not identifying as the sex they are. If I've interpreted your posts correctly Alex, this is what you've said. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(identify as may not be the appropriate term, but it's the one that transpeople tend to use so I'll go with it)

Cross-posted with you alex - thanks

@OvaHere

I've called it a 'pointless' argument because in this situation it is - there is no point arguing about something when it is not going to result in any change of view. I see the concern for myself and appreciate it, I just do not share it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I have said that I support lesbians and gay men who are not attracted to trans people so don't really think I'm homophobic.

[quote alexk3]@DickKerrLadies

no worries, I'm always interested in GC arguments becuase I like knowing all sides of things, I just agree with earlier posters that perhaps the discussion was more productive (at least in my view) when I was slightly opening people's minds on how dysphoria works, not re-hashing various trans issues? If that makes sense :).

@EdgeOfACoin

thank you! no worries[/quote]
Yes, it makes sense. But only if you stop thinking about it halfway through.

Understanding how gender dysphoria makes one feel, is, of course, very useful. It doesn't stop gender dysphoria being a condition that is trying to solve something.

If you can't talk about what it's trying to solve, you'll never address it. You can only accommodate it.

And that will just perpetuate it.

Detransitioners all have the same story. If anyone is worth listening to, Alex, it's them.

Identifying the causes of gender dysphoria is something that has been campaigned against. Hopefully, once the Tavistock are held to more account, this will change.

alex, can I ask you that if a cure was found for gender dysphoria, whether you would be pleased? Would you want it?

I have said that I support lesbians and gay men who are not attracted to trans people so don't really think I'm homophobic.

It's not about individuals. I didn't say you were homophobic personally, and it seems you do actually realise there is a distinction between female people who are only attracted to other female people and male trans people who are attracted to females.

It's about this idea that exclusive same sex attraction is transphobic. That is homophobic.

Alex, you seem like a sweet person and I don't want to pile on but I do want to reframe the "lesbian" issue... you don't have to answer but I'd like to leave you with the thought.

Pride used to be about the right of same-sex attracted people to say who we are, to openly be who we are.

How are exclusively same-sex attracted women supposed to be open about who they are when they don't have a word for it any more?

The issue of spaces is even more important of course, but it starts with taking away people's words for themselves. Lesbians can't organise lesbian-only groups when they aren't allowed to define the word "lesbian." Now it's got to the point that they aren't even allowed to say on lesbian dating apps that they're lesbians - yes, women are getting banned from lesbian dating apps for saying they only want to meet women (the original, vulva-having variety.) Think about that - lesbians can't be openly lesbian on lesbian dating apps any more. Where is the Pride in that?

Ok that's all I wanted to say and you don't have to answer.

@UrsulaBirkin

Just want to say thank you for sharing Alex. You sound like a lovely man and I hope you find the love you deserve when you are ready for a relationship.

I've struggled so much with some of the TRA / TERF issues lately. I've always considered myself liberal, and being a lecturer at an FE college I often work with trans students and I'm more than happy to accept them as their identified gender and use their preferred pronouns. I see these young people as belonging to a vulnerable group and want to protect them, and make them feel safe and happy in college. I respect them and believe them.

Unfortunately some of the recent fury towards any emphasis of the idea that biological sex is real, and /can/ be a significant part of being a woman (it might not always be for every woman) along with #nodebate and some of the desire for violence and subjugation towards cis women has really upset and confused me. So - I'm so glad to have been reading this and seeing normal discussions and an acceptance from an obviously intelligent trans man that these issues can be complex and raise different views.

I do believe that traditionally women, and feminists in particular, have always been allies to the LGBTQ community and I hope with more open, thoughtful and intelligent discussion we can get through this very strange period when there seems to be an odd wall of hostility.

We'd be so much stronger if actual respectful debate and discussion could resume.

I don't know if any of this makes sense but I do thank you and you are brave and kind to come among people with some GC views.

COMPLETELY agree with this. I too work in higher education and am completely respectful of everyone's gender identity, taking care to use the correct name, pronouns, etc. But I'm not comfortable with the potential erasure of sex-segregated spaces for those with XX chromosomes and it seems like lunacy to suggest that biological sex does not exist and should be entirely replaced by self-identified gender. And am acutely aware that, if I expressed this view online or in public, I would be labelled as transphobic or a TERF.

@alexk3 thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us on here, it's really helped my understanding.