A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Sex isn't assigned at birth. It's observed.

The law defines sex as a a male or female of any age. Only males with a GRC have a claim to being "female", and even then there are exemptions permitted in both the GRA and Equality Act.

[quote Thelnebriati]@etalb1

turn that around and I don't see why lesbians should be able to say that other lesbians cannot define themselves as lesbian if they have a sexual/romantic relationship with a trans woman, bc of their genitalia.

Because to be protected in law you have to have a legal definition. The Equality Act has to be able to define 'lesbian' so that any discrimination against lesbians can be prosecuted.

The Equality Act 2010 names sex and sexual orientation as protected characteristics, and states that lesbians are women who are same sex attracted.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9[/quote]
I think people, particularly young people, forget how hard men and women campaigned to get sexual orientation protected by law.

Persecuting people for their sexual orientation was horrific.

It's a bit odd that at the same time as thinking, well thank goodness we're not like that now, we are much more laid-back and accepting, they also are complicit in lesbians, particularly, being, yet again horrifically persecuted for their sexual orientation.

And then not joining the dots.

I admit I ought to have looked into it more. I wasn't aware that it was such an issue for many lesbians. Personally, I have never known anyone to experience that sort of harassment and I have never experienced it either

Many lesbians have been describing for a long time the ubiquitous infiltration/harrassment by heterosexual males in lesbian spaces. People ought to look into it more and listen to the women impacted most.

But the law does not define "sex" as birth assigned sex.

The Equality Act defines 'sex'. It is a protected characteristic. I've just given you a link to the Act, stop misrepresenting it and instead try to understand why its needed.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/11

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/8

2.Definitions and differences
The UK government defines sex as:

• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21#definitions-and-differences

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the UK government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

It may be useful in many circumstances to apply such definitions (respectfully) in order to make the sense and implications clearer. This is particularly relevant in circumstances which concern the Safeguarding of children or Vulnerable Adults.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man.

@Datun

yes if there was some kind of magic pill that would get rid of it I would take it.

@WatermelonSugarHigh & @UniversalAunt

you're welcome :)

[quote alexk3]@Datun

yes if there was some kind of magic pill that would get rid of it I would take it.

@WatermelonSugarHigh & @UniversalAunt

you're welcome :)[/quote]
Thanks for responding.

I'm a transgender woman, and my passport says "F" under "sex".

So yeah, a female of any age. I'm glad we are in agreement.

Just because people are nice to you about something does not make it true

That the passport office allows the sex marker to change without a GRC does not affect the legal definition of female sex.

I know that lesbianism is defined by same sex attraction, and I am not denying that. I am a lesbian and am therefore same sex attracted. I also realise how hard people campaigned to get sexual orientation in law. And I’m not saying that any of it should be reversed, in any way by being laid back about gender and sexual orientation. I want all lesbians to be comfortable being lesbian, and being same sex attracted. But I also just think there is room for trans women in the community also. Trans women being in the community should not negate the experiences of lesbians. I believe they do not, but I know we cannot agree here.

I believe I could one day be with a trans woman - the woman is more important than sex for me (and I know I cannot speak on behalf of all lesbians) but I don’t believe that would make me any less lesbian. It is not right that some lesbians are treated as harshly as they are for not being with a trans person. No one deserves that.
But I think it’s also unfair to dictate who can say they are lesbians. I believe trans women are women, and I know we will have to agree to disagree on that here, so I would still be a lesbian. Years of relationships with women cannot be overturned by one relationship with a trans woman, in my opinion. We all have different priorities in relationships, and with different people; no one can speak on behalf of everyone everywhere.

The Passport Office allowed me to have a different name but it wasn't the one I was born with

"That the passport office allows the sex marker to change without a GRC does not affect the legal definition of female sex."

Yeah, this was confirmed in the Freddy McConnell court of appeal case. In English law 'mother' always means the individual who gave birth to the child. The court confirmed this was a case where a person's sex on their gender recognition certificate could come apart from sex in other areas of the law. Freddy's passport and gender recognition certificate say 'M', but that doesn't therefore entail that Freddy is a legal 'father'.

"Mother' and 'father', for the purposes of birth certificates, are still sex linked terms that pertain to the biological role in reproduction - in other words, who gave birth.

@Datun I’ve been lurking and loathe to comment as someone who is male bodied but has diagnosed gender dysphoria (although have not transitioned and live in society as a man) but i think your question about whether People with dysphoria would take a cure for it is important and I hope you’ll forgive me for answering it. If it were purely a choice of anything my choice would be to have a female body. If that is not an option (which in reality it isn’t) my initial response would be to say yes I would. I hate my dysphoria, it distresses me everyday at times it’s paralysing in the sheer sadness I feel at who I am not. Then I have to consider that actually it’s part of who I am and who would I be without it? I’m not sure I would still be the person I am today and the relationships and career choices I’ve made I suspect would be very different and I’m not sure I would like me without it. So no I don’t think I would take a cure for it it has made me who I am despite the pain it causes me. That may seem bizarre but I hope it’s a helpful answer.

@Blibberty

that's exactly how I feel! like I think I would lose a part of myself really. If I could have just never developed dysphoria that would have been ideal

I know that lesbianism is defined by same sex attraction, and I am not denying that.

But I think it’s also unfair to dictate who can say they are lesbians

But I also just think there is room for trans women in the community also.

I don't even know where to start. It's just gobbledygook.

Lesbianism is based on sex, but both sexes? Sex between a male and female is lesbianism?

So, equally, two women giving each other cunnilingus is gay male sex?

It is not right that some lesbians are treated as harshly as they are for not being with a trans person.

Well good luck with 'lesbians not being treated harshly' when you can't even define them.

[quote alexk3]@Blibberty

that's exactly how I feel! like I think I would lose a part of myself really. If I could have just never developed dysphoria that would have been ideal[/quote]
Completely agree with both of you. Being trans has coloured my life from the earliest age, whether I expressed it or not.

[quote Blibberty]@Datun I’ve been lurking and loathe to comment as someone who is male bodied but has diagnosed gender dysphoria (although have not transitioned and live in society as a man) but i think your question about whether People with dysphoria would take a cure for it is important and I hope you’ll forgive me for answering it. If it were purely a choice of anything my choice would be to have a female body. If that is not an option (which in reality it isn’t) my initial response would be to say yes I would. I hate my dysphoria, it distresses me everyday at times it’s paralysing in the sheer sadness I feel at who I am not. Then I have to consider that actually it’s part of who I am and who would I be without it? I’m not sure I would still be the person I am today and the relationships and career choices I’ve made I suspect would be very different and I’m not sure I would like me without it. So no I don’t think I would take a cure for it it has made me who I am despite the pain it causes me. That may seem bizarre but I hope it’s a helpful answer.[/quote]
I'm not sure I quite understand it, to be honest. Something that you find crippling you wouldn't do without, even if you could?

Which means, presumably, there is some benefit to be had from it?

Even talking about this hypothetical scenario is ... making me uncomfortable and slightly sad that height altering surgery isn't readily available.

Kantastic - this comment blew my mind: I wasn't expecting it and it knocked me over. I was the same. It was ages ago and I'd forgotten till I read your post (and the idea of 'transheightism' had never occurred to me), but I can feel that longing again right now.

I thought of myself as a boy, I was never interested in girly things and I certainly didn't want my future to be the boring and restricted life of a woman. But above all, I wanted to be tall and strong. I wanted that more than I wanted anything.

Luckily women's liberation was dawning, and I stopped wanting to be male when I discovered women could have interesting lives too. Also, I liked the company of women and didn't want to leave it. I still wished I was tall and strong -- that would probably have protected me from some of the violent men I encountered. But it was pointless longing for something that couldn't happen.

That gives me a slightly different perspective on transgenderism, now, than I had before. What would I have done if I'd been told it was natural to want greater height and strength, if I'd been offered bone grafts and steroids? I honestly don't know.

I'm a transgender woman, and my passport says "F" under "sex".

I think this is a very important point.
Many people are unaware that UK passports inaccurately record the opposite sex for those who have obtained the relevent letter from their GP or gender clinic.
This is not related to the GRC or indicative of surgery or medical intervention.

2014 CBBC 'I am Leo' showed a parent securing a passport for her daughter with opposite sex (M) indicated, assisted by long standing TRA Stephen Whittle (Press For Change)

Yes Spartacus, exactly. Someone once made a great analogy: Tesco as a corporation is a person, but if I throw a brick through the window of my local store I will be arrested for criminal damage, not GBH.

this comment blew my mind: I wasn't expecting it and it knocked me over. I was the same. It was ages ago and I'd forgotten till I read your post. I was the same!

I am so tickled and a little bit moved by this. I had forgotten it myself till I did the thought experiment about body changes. And it wasn't till this thread that I recollected actually asking other people if they felt the same! I'd pushed it down quite hard.

I don't think I'll start defining myself as "transheight" - I genuinely think it's the kind of thing that could potentially be amplified into distress by naming it or thinking too hard about it. But just for the purposes of this thread alone, how nice and interesting to meet a fellow transheight person.