Showing that feminists don't all hate heterosexual male sexuality

[IronPyrites]

OK so I am talking about consensual adult sexuality only.

I think there is a feeling, imo an incorrect one, but still a feeling, among many straight men that feminism wants to impose celibacy on all straight men, and hates and derides any expression of male sexuality.
Now, while I think this is unfounded, I wonder sometimes if there is any mileage in perhaps showing some compassion for the difficulties that many straight men encounter in their personal lives in general, and perhaps even that the pain of sexual or romantic frustration is no less real (and perhaps heightened by societal expectations of the straight male stud) for this group of people than anyone else. I have nothing but contempt for the so-called incels who clearly despise and feel entitled to women, and for men who express disdain for and behave badly to women in other ways, but I do think it may do some good to counter the message that you sometimes hear that feminism is anti-men, and showing that there is probably a societal bias against and fear of male sexuality in general. I hope you understand what I mean.

I know of senior partners who wouldn’t even employ a woman of childbearing age if the option of a (less qualified) male candidate was there.

Thats your personal experience, its not systemic. Nevertheless there will likely be reasons why this is the case. The reason is likely financial risk rather than just 'liking' men better than women and being sexist.

You're on the feminist board, Alison. But good luck in your quest to overcome the scourge of women's rights.

And i would say im an old fashioned feminist, whos ashamed of what i see it becoming. Theres no one size fits all definition of feminism,

Thats your personal experience, its not systemic.

There are systemic biases. The assumption you make that the woman will be more of a 'financial risk' than the man is an example. My company is supportive of its staff who are parents (spearheaded by women but I'm glad to say also benefitting men)- so, they've benefited from skills retention.

Oh Alison. Please don’t try to tell the well educated, experienced feminists of Mumsnet, that you know better than them. It’s probably best if you read a few of the threads on the FWR board and you might have a better understanding of what feminism is, before you try to school them. I’ve learned so much from them and you could too, if you take the time to learn.

The first thing you might learn, is the fact that Mumsnet actually welcomes all women, even the ones that don’t want to have children and I know it’s a shocker, but we also have male posters and people who identify as trans.

Excuse me, I wasn't aware this was a feminist web site? Its a site for mums, hence, MUMSnet.

Actually, despite the name it's (primarily) a site 'by parents, for parents' - of both sexes. Feminists are generally only too happy to have fathers taking their responsibilities seriously.

@Alisonjabub

You're on the feminist board, Alison. But good luck in your quest to overcome the scourge of women's rights.

And i would say im an old fashioned feminist, whos ashamed of what i see it becoming. Theres no one size fits all definition of feminism,

What’s an ‘old fashioned feminist’. I’m a 52 year old feminist, so I’m just wondering what your definition of an ‘old fashioned’ feminist is?

Ah yes, the special old fashioned wave of feminism that holds that women should really just settle into caring positions, it's a better financial decision to hire men, and what on earth are women complaining about anyway.

Second wave feminists tend to identify that as 'supporting the patriarchy' but I suppose 'old fashioned' works pretty well to describe being desperate to maintain the status quo and keep women in their place.

Oh if only I’d made the right choices.
Are those ‘most economists’ men perchance?

Not the one I read. She makes a good point that the data can be misleading as a pay gap could reflect that a company is taking on lots of junior female graduates, which seems very possible given that young women earn more than young men and the gender gap in education is still widening.

iea.org.uk/gender-pay-gaps-are-not-the-result-of-discrimination/

An interesting discussion on it which I watched ages ago after seeing it mentioned on here.

It is the high number of women employed within the company as cabin crew, and the relatively small number of women employed as pilots that leads to an overall gender pay gap.

That article isn't very reflective. The whole point is - why are women predominantly in low paying roles and men in high paying roles in companies? That's what causes most of the gap.

Noone thinks companies are routinely flouting the equal pay act (although that does happen). Instead men are getting the higher paying jobs.
Now either a) men are intrinsically more capable than women or b) there are barriers to women getting those jobs. Most feminists think B. The gender pay gap implies those barriers still exist

I was just wondering how far back you have to go to find a “woman’s place is in the home feminist”.... even our dear old queen drove an ambulance and used a nanny.

I'm actually all for women to have the choice to be an "in the home feminist" if they want to be one. If they want to hand control of their lives over to someone else, then far be it for me to stop them. As long, as long, and I repeat AS LONG, as it IS A CHOICE and not something forced on them by expectations, society, family, peer pressure, or another outside influence. If it's her choice, then I'm all for it. I do think a smart woman would retain financial independence and maintain a social life outwith her marriage and home, but if the surrendered wife is your kinda thing, go for it.

The whole point is - why are women predominantly in low paying roles and men in high paying roles in companies?

And then there's the observed phenomenon that the monetary value given to a job mysteriously gets downgraded if that sector employs more women, and upgraded if it starts to employ more men.

RE Old fashioned feminism, maybe we're meant to party like it's 1799?

BigGee - alongside that though, the same choices and freedom to choose should apply equally to men.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities, equal freedoms and allowed choices.

Yep. Going back to the earlier part of the discussion, if I was making tons of money I'd be quite happy to have a male partner who stayed home, especially if we had kids. It's the attachment to gender roles that fucks everything up, more obviously for women but it would be better for some men if we did away with them too.

50,000 women a year lose their job after their employer finds out they are pregnant. How many is the magic number before we are allowed to say its a systemic bias?

''Data analysed by the House of Commons library found that 14 per cent of the 340,000 women who take maternity leave each year find their jobs under threat when they try to return, with some told that they cannot continue in their role part-time.''
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10267223/Up-to-50000-women-a-year-cant-return-to-jobs-after-maternity-leave-study-finds.html

Old fashioned feminism like Boudicca?

Liberal feminism is old-fashioned. In my opinion.

And fucking useless.

@ErrolTheDragon

BigGee - alongside that though, the same choices and freedom to choose should apply equally to men.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities, equal freedoms and allowed choices.

That seems fair.

To be honest I don’t pretend to understand all the myriad reasons/causes/systemic biases that have led to the status quo. It is enough that so many people are dissatisfied with it that we should at least discuss it to look to make it more equitable.

I’m not exactly a feminist, but I can only imagine how frustrating it is that we seem perpetually stuck in the even agreeing if there even is a problem, phase of the debate. It is frustrating as buggery to me, and I’m not even in the demographic that is compromised by all this.

I see much the same in the discussion around rape/sexual assault, as if we all just collectively shrug our shoulders and conclude “men are gonna rape what can you do huh?” with an added side order of placing way too much scrutiny on women as if they are somehow responsible for it.

That said I’d be open to interpretations of things like the gender pay gap that aren’t consciously sexist. Like for example people will tend to hire/promote people who remind them of themselves. So it’s possible to trully not believe women or ethnic minorities are inferior in any way, but your unconscious biases may lead you to advance those people who reflect your in-group. Say for example you are a straight white man who pretty much only mixes with other straight white men, well there is your bias right there. I truly believe if your in group is diverse your unconscious biases will lean toward reflecting that.

For many men/women they often only mix when it comes to family, sex or children. Unfortunately we run up against this very toxic idea that romantic/sexual interactions are the summit of male/female relations. I do not believe it has to be so.

[quote Shmurf]An interesting discussion on it which I watched ages ago after seeing it mentioned on here.

[/quote] Ive just mentiomed this link on another chat referring to the wage gap. Ive just watched it again there and its interesting and gives all the reasons.

I've just mentiomed this link on another chat referring to the wage gap. Ive just watched it again there and its interesting and gives all the reasons.

I just love seeing the annoying Kate Smurthwaite get wound up. 😂 I saw a funny debate between her and Milo Yiannopoulos, who I usually also find annoying. She had made a sarcastic comment about him speaking for women, so he responded a few minutes later with a sarcy 'shhh, love, we're discussing men's issues now' and she lost her shit, seemingly totally oblivious to the intended irony.

@BigGee

I'm actually all for women to have the choice to be an "in the home feminist" if they want to be one. If they want to hand control of their lives over to someone else, then far be it for me to stop them. As long, as long, and I repeat AS LONG, as it IS A CHOICE and not something forced on them by expectations, society, family, peer pressure, or another outside influence. If it's her choice, then I'm all for it. I do think a smart woman would retain financial independence and maintain a social life outwith her marriage and home, but if the surrendered wife is your kinda thing, go for it.

Some of us in low paid work literally couldn't afford the childcare to keep in employment.

Nothing whatsoever to do with being a fucking surrended wife.