Showing that feminists don't all hate heterosexual male sexuality

[IronPyrites]

OK so I am talking about consensual adult sexuality only.

I think there is a feeling, imo an incorrect one, but still a feeling, among many straight men that feminism wants to impose celibacy on all straight men, and hates and derides any expression of male sexuality.
Now, while I think this is unfounded, I wonder sometimes if there is any mileage in perhaps showing some compassion for the difficulties that many straight men encounter in their personal lives in general, and perhaps even that the pain of sexual or romantic frustration is no less real (and perhaps heightened by societal expectations of the straight male stud) for this group of people than anyone else. I have nothing but contempt for the so-called incels who clearly despise and feel entitled to women, and for men who express disdain for and behave badly to women in other ways, but I do think it may do some good to counter the message that you sometimes hear that feminism is anti-men, and showing that there is probably a societal bias against and fear of male sexuality in general. I hope you understand what I mean.

Females are the safest they've ever been in history yet go on about how they're less safe???
Less safe THAN MEN.

Are women less safe from men now than in the past? Is there reliable data on this?

These are talking points that were at the request of a feminist

How do you know I'm a feminist? What is a feminist anyway?

And no, not engaging with that lot of MRA claptrap since you can't be buggered to even think through that list properly and check your facts.

I'm a blokeophile feminist. I like & fancy a good bloke, me. I know I'm lucky I'm with one. I'll go up ladders, clear the garden, repoint the brickwork. So will he. He'll do dinner, washing up, laundry, loo clean. So will I. We both work together too, at the same thing, different skills combining to create a result. Ok I want nothing to do with the inner workings of technology and he is terrified by the very thought of sewing a button back on. This is how you can tell us apart (we're the same height, both have long hair and can rock the same velvet jacket)!

Are women less safe from men now than in the past? Is there reliable data on this?
I don't think I was clear. Whether or not women are safer now than in the past is not really relevant to the discussion about safe spaces. Women were and remain less safe than men in mixed spaces. So women need women only spaces to maximise their spaces.
E.g. www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3famp

Sometimes people cartoon feminism as "things are better for women now, no need for feminism" and ignore the fact women are at significant disadvantages compared to men and so there is still work to be done.

@ErrolTheDragon

Are women less safe from men now than in the past? Is there reliable data on this?

Sometimes people cartoon feminism as "things are better for women now, no need for feminism" and ignore the fact women are at significant disadvantages compared to men and so there is still work to be done.

See also, "it isn't Somalia". I know. neglecting the fact that women still live in Somalia (just not me) and that just because it's better than Somalia, doesn't mean women aren't being abused here.

I meant to query Alison, not you Quentin - and should have worded it as 'more safe from men than in the past'. As you say, it's not a good argument even if it was true but I'm dubious as to whether there's data supporting that stance.

Ha! Thanks errol! I was a bit surprised

I'm still waiting for the data from the hundreds and hundreds of studies showing women are naturally submissive. Get in line!

I’m also waiting for a man to be accused of going to work to avoid spending time with his children...?

Oh we had those scrimp. Except turned out Alison hadn't read them and the findings were not quite as portrayed oh and there were only 2, not hundreds

Females are the safest they've ever been in history yet go on about how they're less safe???

How would one even measure that, on a global scale? How has the person making that statement come to that conclusion? I mean, we're all arguably safer from infectious diseases than we were even a century ago, but as current events demonstrate "safe" is always a relative concept where that's concerned. Other than that I see no indication that women are any safer than we've ever been.

Do you deny that a pay gap exist? Or do you believe that is just women's choices?

I thought most economists believe it to be down to choices?

I'm sure I read that in more patriarchal societies (e.g. India) women are more likely to choose STEM choices but in more progressive societies they choose more traditional roles (I think it was in Sweden).

The rationale being that education and high earnings are a means of escape in more oppressive countries but that given free choice many women don't make the same choices as men.

‘Choices’ are hard to make in a vacuum. And have very little to do with the inherent hiring and promotion bias in many industries. In banking we used to say ‘congratulations on your new penis - oh I mean job’ when the chap in line took an available promotion over the far more experienced, capable, and eight times as many women who had applied for the same role. It was never a surprise that the 23yo male was promoted over all the available women. Just predictable. And predictably irritating.
Indeed in a different career as a single woman, my promotion had gone to my male colleague (with two years less experience in role) because her has a wife and child to support’. And yes. He actually said that when a separate colleague asked why x and not y.
Oh if only I’d made the right choices.
Are those ‘most economists’ men perchance?

The rationale being that education and high earnings are a means of escape in more oppressive countries but that given free choice many women
It's true schmurf but the rationale is actually that computing is seen as a safer cleaner career choice as it's in an office. and therefore more appropriate for a woman

I don’t know how to link to the thread with the times article about the study with the IDENTICAL CV sent to veterinary practices (Identical apart from a male/female name of candidate). Male named candidate on average offered 8% higher starting salary and were more likely to be viewed favourably for a senior/managerial position. The bias was worst from employers who didn’t believe in gender bias/pay gap.

contexts.org/articles/what-gender-is-science/

I know of senior partners who wouldn’t even employ a woman of childbearing age if the option of a (less qualified) male candidate was there.

pumbaas just copy the link from the address bar and paste it
I've not seen that thread, sounds interesting

Meanwhile, the same PP implies that as well as gender bias at work being down to women’s choices, they are also bad mothers for going to work (criticism not levelled at fathers).

It can’t be both can it? Simultaneously choosing poorer employment opportunities and choosing work over your children? Do women also choose to take on the majority of domestic chores and caring for vulnerable/elderly relatives too? Choose to forgo a decent pension for these reasons? How often have I heard of women doing nearly all of the care for elderly parents when her adult brothers consider themselves too busy at work?

Choose to get vilified in divorce proceedings for expecting a share of the wealth accumulated by a husband who was enabled to work and earn well by her domestic sacrifice, or if in a non-married relationship, potentially leave with nothing to show for her efforts at all?

Like pp said, choices aren’t made in a vacuum.

Thanks Quentin

That's a particularly good, comprehensive piece, Quentin

I just don’t really understand why people go to the effort of coming to a feminist website to tell women that they don’t need feminism.

Excuse me, I wasn't aware this was a feminist web site? Its a site for mums, hence, MUMSnet. I happen to believe that feminism in its current form is, and will turn out to be very damaging to mums and children alike, so I have just as much right as the next person to be here and state my views thanks.

You're on the feminist board, Alison. But good luck in your quest to overcome the scourge of women's rights.