Showing that feminists don't all hate heterosexual male sexuality

[IronPyrites]

OK so I am talking about consensual adult sexuality only.

I think there is a feeling, imo an incorrect one, but still a feeling, among many straight men that feminism wants to impose celibacy on all straight men, and hates and derides any expression of male sexuality.
Now, while I think this is unfounded, I wonder sometimes if there is any mileage in perhaps showing some compassion for the difficulties that many straight men encounter in their personal lives in general, and perhaps even that the pain of sexual or romantic frustration is no less real (and perhaps heightened by societal expectations of the straight male stud) for this group of people than anyone else. I have nothing but contempt for the so-called incels who clearly despise and feel entitled to women, and for men who express disdain for and behave badly to women in other ways, but I do think it may do some good to counter the message that you sometimes hear that feminism is anti-men, and showing that there is probably a societal bias against and fear of male sexuality in general. I hope you understand what I mean.

To be fair, I actually really like Ron Swanson. But the deadpan delivery just works so well. Ron Burgundy was definitely even better.

I am so pleased you said that Floral.

Now I can admit to my love of both Ron Swanson and Ron Burgundy - don't come for me!

I think they are both hilarious in different ways. Unless you're Gillian Anderson, I have no plans to come for you, and even as one of them nasty lesbian feminist types, there are plenty of men who I like. World tilting, for some, I know.

@Michelleoftheresistance

So females may try for equality if they're nice about it and don't offend men?

I don't think you've thought through what equality really is.

I'm a woman, and I feel like we have equality now. In fact i think if anything feminism reeks of desperation today in some ways by still trying to continue fighting a battle we've already won and flaming tensions were we need not.

If you still feel like you need additional rights above that of men to move forward in the world today then its likely its you thats doing something wrong and not a result of being disadvantaged or not on a level par with men.

I'm a woman, and I feel like we have equality now

Many of us used to blithely think that. Maybe you, personally, do. But try looking at the lives of other women, both in the U.K. and elsewhere.

In what way has feminism won the war?

Are you thinking globally or just in one country?

Do you deny that a pay gap exist? Or do you believe that is just women's choices?
Do you deny that men use their physical strength to hurt, rape and control women? Or do you believe that women cause just as much pain to men through nagging and bitchy comments ?
Do you deny that society is structured around the Male default or do you just think that women shouldn't drive cars? That women don't actually need pain relief after heart surgery? That women don't need to be well represented in parliament?

I'm a woman, and I feel like we have equality now.

Then I'd suggest, respectfully, that you haven't given it nearly enough thought. Female humans absolutely do not have equality even in this country, never mind in countries across the world. I'd suggest reading around this board and the articles of feminists leading the conversation and see what the issues are, and why female people are experiencing them. There's plenty of female voices on the subject.

If you still feel like you need additional rights above that of men to move forward in the world

Yes there were a few things in your post that were a bit rude to put it mildly, but perhaps you'd like to unpick this one a little further: what 'additional' rights above men do you feel these awful, desperate, reeking feminists are trying to gain exactly?

Equal pay?
The right to single sex spaces?
Equality of health care?
Equality of justice?
Equality of political representation?

Which of these exactly would be 'more' than male humans have?

Do you deny that society is structured around the Male default or do you just think that women shouldn't drive cars? That women don't actually need pain relief after heart surgery?

If you don't understand that comment, you probably need to read (or at least read about) 'Invisible Women'.

If you still feel like you need additional rights above that of men

I don't think feminists in general do. What additional rights have you seen anyone ask for?

In the context of the U.K., we ostensibly have legal equality, but in many fields this does not equate to equal outcome. One of the main reasons for this is that, as yet, men in general don't accept equal responsibility in many areas e.g child raising, domestic tasks, or blaming women for men's violence (let alone sexual frustrations).

It really isn’t my place to critique feminism. I agree with some of it some of it less so, although that may be just down to me simply not understanding certain things, but I will say if enough people are dissatisfied with society in any of its aspects it behooves is all to at least listen and engage.

Wether that’s feminism, black lives matter or whichever group believes they are disadvantaged. As an absolute bare minimum I want to live in a world where people can express their grievances and feel the rest of the world is willing to listen and take.

I’ve been in that space of thinking “well the world has broadly worked out for me and I haven’t experienced any obvious problems, so it can’t be that bad for everyone else.” Someone took the time to take me to task, and for the record yes it was over feminism. I know I must have been as frustrating as hell to argue with, however I did at least go away educate myself and of course apologise admitting I was wrong.

I’ve been in that space of thinking “well the world has broadly worked out for me and I haven’t experienced any obvious problems, so it can’t be that bad for everyone else.” Someone took the time to take me to task, and for the record yes it was over feminism. I know I must have been as frustrating as hell to argue with, however I did at least go away educate myself and of course apologise admitting I was wrong.

Me to - and as it happens, it was a bloke on a pre WWW internet debate forum who got me to realise 'I'm all right, Jill' didn't cut it.

@Michelleoftheresistance

If you still feel like you need additional rights above that of men to move forward in the world

Yes there were a few things in your post that were a bit rude to put it mildly, but perhaps you'd like to unpick this one a little further: what 'additional' rights above men do you feel these awful, desperate, reeking feminists are trying to gain exactly?

Equal pay?
The right to single sex spaces?
Equality of health care?
Equality of justice?
Equality of political representation?

Which of these exactly would be 'more' than male humans have?

They have to be the easiest things to pick apart in an instant.

a) Equal pay: Men and women are paid the same money. THIS IS LAW. If you feel you are being paid unfairly the system thats in place means you can take the employer to court and be awarded compensation for your injustice. I bet seeing as you want things to be equal you'd also encourage the porn industry to slash the womens pay to equal it out for the men a bit? Equality and all...

b) Safe spaces: This is a ridiculous thing brought about by the left to allow trans people into the space that they identify as. While I think it is wrong to assume people are who they identify as, this policy kind of makes me laugh as its the same identity politics game the feminists play just on a different pitch.
Regardless, its not really a safety issue at all, and most females know fine well theres no evidence they would be any less safe because of this, not to mention trans people have used female bathrooms for years without fuss. Females are the safest they've ever been in history yet go on about how they're less safe???

c)Equality of healthcare: I dont know where you picked this up from, but im entitled to the same healthcare as my DH and my DS is entiled to the same as DD. What does this even mean??

d)Equality of Justice: Again what does this even mean. The justice system doesnt discriminate. We pride ourselves on this system.

e) Equality of political representation: Why political representation? Why not equality of bricklayers? Because all your after is power maybe? Political representation should never by decided based on the person having a vagina. We elect people based on competence not group identity.

Ah, MRA talking points. Make me misty eyed with nostalgia.

@ErrolTheDragon

Do you deny that society is structured around the Male default or do you just think that women shouldn't drive cars? That women don't actually need pain relief after heart surgery?

If you don't understand that comment, you probably need to read (or at least read about) 'Invisible Women'.

Is that the male default to raise a happy healthy family usually including women and children? What on earth is a male default? Society has been set up around an efficiency default, not a male default.

Men and women obviously are different in terms of their personalities. I guess the main thing I don't understand is why so many women are so eager to spend LESS time with their children. As that has always been something ive been so grateful for I cant understand why other women want to hand off so much of this precious time in favour of going to work. Its like 'go to work or spend time with kids more' hmm?

Go on, do the one about coal miners, I always enjoy that one. We could have a soundtrack of Men of Harlech from a male voice choir to add pathos.

@FloralBunting

Ah, MRA talking points. Make me misty eyed with nostalgia.

These are talking points that were at the request of a feminist so hardly MRA talking points. I'm no fan of MRA's in general, but i dont think we should just set up labels for people and judge them only by that when they might have something valid to say.

The problem is no one likes believing their views could be wrong, the least we owe to other women is to consider them carefully. Ive moved strongly away from the left for moral reasons and have had to come to some sharp realisations the past decade or so.

So, you clearly didn't understand the comment about 'Male default' and driving cars; my recommendation to read 'Invisible Women' stands.

You're really not very well informed about the topics you're trying to talk about.
The 'equality' questions ... you're just skating on the surface of what should be, rather than trying to understand the reality for many women.

(A somewhat ironic cross post...)

I just don’t really understand why people go to the effort of coming to a feminist website to tell women that they don’t need feminism.

I have thankfully not suffered severely due to workplace inequalities or serious sexual assault, but I’ve been frighteningly harassed on a train as a student and during a sole charge night shift at work. I’ve worked somewhere that did the risk assessment for pregnancy but still expected me to work on my feet for 4 hours without a break and lift weights of up to 20kg.

I’ve had to do all sorts of juggling to keep my job throughout coronavirus and try to get some education into my children. I have had 3 babies and 2 miscarriages (one with an A&E admission due to haemorrhage). I developed an immune disorder which was poorly managed for the first year or so (possible cause of miscarriages) and dismissed by doctors as a new mum/breastfeeding issue but at least I have not needed mesh reconstruction or been treated with teratogenic drugs.
I have daughters who already ask questions about body weight and an eldest already freaking out about puberty. I worry about what the world will be like as they grow up.

I am a woman with a happy marriage, a job and healthy children in a western country. I am very fortunate and yet I am not immune to issues that only affect women. I can certainly empathise with those who are more severely impacted by their sex. Yes, the law provides ‘equality’ in the strictest sense, but there is still a lot to do to improve life and opportunities for women and girls.

If male sex lives are a problem, let them campaign and sort themselves out, we’re busy enough.

Right?
Don’t see the need for women’s rights? Grand. Off you pop, love. Nothing for you here unless you’ve just come to goad.

Funnily enough, I moved away from the right, towards the left, and then away again.

Shall we all have a game of the hokey cokey?

Damn, my headphones are downstairs - I do like the sound of a good male voice choir - that had better be a Welsh one - but no point listening at low volume.

Ahhhhhh. Rousing.