Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

So, not only are women are significantly lower proportion of murder victims, the absolute numbers are also going down, which to my mind is good news, rather than alarming.

Not the point really though, is it? Males mostly kill other males but kill females too. The issue is the false claim that "black trans women" are murdered at alarming rates.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong "There was a massive purity spiral over the Brighton trans ‘vigil’ for GRA reforms last weekend (no, I don’t know why they called it a vigil either)." - The 'vigil' part involves remembering - reading aloud - a list of murdered trans women with absolutely no context, to remind everyone that the most oppressed group ever are black trans women (and/or trans women of colour, depending on how they're phrasing it - it's nonsense either way).

the absolute numbers are also going down

I just realised that with population growth this might not actually be true, so went to the FBI Expanded Homicide data site, which isn't perfect as it only reports data where details of the offender are known, but still worth a look...

2018 - 1921 female victims
2017 - 1932 female victims
2016 - 1913 female victims

That was all I could find, not particularly conclusive.

@ Home2018

I'm amazed at your superpower of being able to deduce someone's ethnicity by their user name on an anonymous internet forum.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So, not only are women are significantly lower proportion of murder victims, the absolute numbers are also going down, which to my mind is good news, rather than alarming.

Not the point really though, is it? Males mostly kill other males but kill females too. The issue is the false claim that "black trans women" are murdered at alarming rates.

Well it is the issue if anybody is trying to suggest, or infers, from the idea that "women are killed at alarming rates" means that women are disproportionately victimised in murders. As women are murdered at below the national average rate, this claim is false too, just as the claim that "black trans women are murdered at alarming rates". It might be "less false" because the rate is closer to the national average, but false all the same.

an issue, sorry, rather than the issue.

Shawbles it's the 'But' that does it every time.

Can we just have the right to say, on a feminist board, that women are being murdered at an alarming rate without the whataboutery please?

Honestly, it is so wearing having to continually fight for air space.

The point of the statistic of 2 (or 3) murders of women a week is that they were, in essence, murdered for being women.

This is not the case in the figures quoted upthread for the number of men / people in general who are murdered each year.

Ditto the statistics for the number of trans murders. A significant proportion of them were not murdered for being trans. The motive for the most recent murder was I believe robbery, so it wasn’t a transphobic hate crime. Trans activists just claimed it was. There are other factors which are not being taken into account - living in a violent, dangerous country (the US, Brazil), working in a violent, dangerous trade (sex work, for example), as well as plain old racism and/or homophobia.

I don’t mean to downplay these murders. I’m just saying that the statistics should be looked at in greater detail before we can draw any conclusions about who is in greater danger (men vs women, biological women vs trans women, etc).

Devastated at the cancelation of the vigil. Surely there were some drag queens who threw the first brick at Maggie Thatcher's miners strikes/equal pay at Dagenham to stand in and why wasn't Damian Barr there to help?

Well, you can say what you want, but the data doesn't back it up.

Rest assured, Shawbles that no one is claiming that more people are killed by male/female violence than male/male violence. But I do think 3 women a week in the UK murdered by partners rather than less than one a year with no known motive, could potentially be described as "alarming" whatever men experience,

You are quite right HarryHarry, there is much more to any analysis than just the raw numbers.

Can we just have the right to say, on a feminist board, that women are being murdered at an alarming rate without the whataboutery please?

This.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Rest assured, Shawbles that no one is claiming that more people are killed by male/female violence than male/male violence. But I do think 3 women a week in the UK murdered by partners rather than less than one a year with no known motive, could potentially be described as "alarming" whatever men experience,

Quite, but that is a different, more precise claim.

That's funny, DuLang. They had to cancel themselves!

2018 - 1921 female victims
2017 - 1932 female victims
2016 - 1913 female victims

No.

Overall when it came to homicides, men accounted for about three quarters of all homicide victims in the United States. Of the 19,362 homicides that the CDC reported in 2016, 3,895 of the victims were women, according to Security.org's report. Men were also much more likely to be perpetrators; men were the aggressors in nine out of ten homicides, according to the report.

www.cbsnews.com/news/us-homicide-rate-female-victims-of-homicide-rose-by-21-percent-according-to-study-2018-12-6/

men are murdered at a higher rate than women, so it seems incorrect to suggest that women too are being murdered at an alarming rate to mean disproportionate,

Everyone knows that men murder more men than they murder women. That's not a little known fact nor is it an ignored one on this board. However what is is not a feminist issue. Men murdering men is a 'sort your own shit out, boys' issue. Men murdering women is a feminist issue - and most people (you know - not pedants who are just comparing stats as if these women are only numbers) would agree 3 a week is* an alarming rate. 3 murders a week every week should alarm anybody. However men want to categorise their own murders - whatever adjective they choose - is entirely down to them. I think 'alarming' works well but if they want to up it to 'catastrophic' to make the distinction of their higher rates compared to women, I certainly wouldn't argue the toss.
But unlike women - they are not being murdered specifically because of their sex. If sex was included in hate crime legislation (its not) the weekly murder of women would be seen as an epidemic

However, if people are claiming that trans women are being murdered at 'alarming rates' and that is why they are so vulnerable and women have privilege over them, then it is only right and correct to point out that women are murdered at a much higher rate than trans women. And that if trans women are murdered at an 'alarming rate' then the rate of woman murder is much much more alarming - which rather explodes the whole 'privilege' thing and debunks completely the 'most vulnerable group' claim .

*This may sound like I'm being particularly cold hearted about male on male murder. I'm not. I care. But there just isn't much of a place for women in this discussion - there is literally nothing we can do to stop men behaving badly towards each other. They really are on their own with that.

However, if people are claiming that trans women are being murdered at 'alarming rates' and that is why they are so vulnerable and women have privilege over them, then it is only right and correct to point out that women are murdered at a much higher rate than trans women. And that if trans women are murdered at an 'alarming rate' then the rate of woman murder is much much more alarming - which rather explodes the whole 'privilege' thing and debunks completely the 'most vulnerable group' claim .

YY.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]2018 - 1921 female victims
2017 - 1932 female victims
2016 - 1913 female victims

No.

Overall when it came to homicides, men accounted for about three quarters of all homicide victims in the United States. Of the 19,362 homicides that the CDC reported in 2016, 3,895 of the victims were women, according to Security.org's report. Men were also much more likely to be perpetrators; men were the aggressors in nine out of ten homicides, according to the report.

www.cbsnews.com/news/us-homicide-rate-female-victims-of-homicide-rose-by-21-percent-according-to-study-2018-12-6/[/quote]
I just realised that with population growth this might not actually be true, so went to the FBI Expanded Homicide data site, which isn't perfect as it only reports data where details of the offender are known, but still worth a look*

It's almost like I put a disclaimer at the start of that message suggesting the data was likely not accurate, but was what I had found in an effort to see if a previous statement was correct.

It seems from the post provided about the cancelation thst next time trafficking of South American trans sex workers will be essential before any local non binaries can attend.

It's almost like I put a disclaimer at the start of that message suggesting the data was likely not accurate, but was what I had found in an effort to see if a previous statement was correct.

Good that you're so gracious in admitting your mistake.

I'll accept quite quickly that the 3 DV murders per week that happen in the UK is alarming in a social sense, because it is completely unacceptable that someone should be murdered in their own home by their partner (not saying that other murders are acceptable, but they have specific scenarios which don't imply the betrayal of confidence - which probably isn't the best term but it's all I can think of right now). I would contest the assertion that "they are being murdered because of their sex", because I think that is an incredibly simplistic way to look at it.

But that wasn't the initial claim that I was querying.

In the general population, I would say that an "alarming" statistical sense would be a sub-population being affected dramatically out of all proportion to the sub-population size as a percentage of the whole.

You're literally being pedantic about the use of an adjective to describe real women dying. On a thread that isn't even about that. Why?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's almost like I put a disclaimer at the start of that message suggesting the data was likely not accurate, but was what I had found in an effort to see if a previous statement was correct.

Good that you're so gracious in admitting your mistake.

Jesus, can't do right for doing wrong.

Every single stat or source I have linked to during this conversation I have put a disclaimer that I have no earthly idea as to the accuracy of the information within. Simply that they were the first link in the search results that came up. It was the smidgen of research I was prepared to do to confirm or deny the claims (for which no evidence whatsoever was presented by those supporting said claims) that Black Trans Women were being murdered at alarming rates, and that women were being murdered at alarming rates.

Now, you can say that one person being murdered is alarming, and in a humanist sense I will happily agree with you. But if whatever group is actually statistically much less likely to be the victim of a crime, then I would suggest that the rates of that crime are not "alarming" in a broader statistical sense.