Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

@Highperbolay

Look at the state of this article for Glamour Magazine. Basically a male telling women how to woman.

The 'Have You Ever Felt an Allyship from Feminism' bit is particular gold:

I think it depends on what feminism you follow. Unfortunately, there's a lot of really unhelpful feminism out there, such as the feminism that J.K.Rowling follows which is called gender critical feminism which believes that trans women are men and that the only women are women that have a uterus. That is awful because a lot of women can't have children and does that mean that they're less women because they're no longer of use?

When did JKR or any gender critical feminist say that 'the only women are women that have a uterus'? It is so true that Munroe's tactic is to sling as much shit as possible and hope that something sticks.

Also this part she says

“ It also doesn't centre the needs of black women, of sex workers, of the people that really need feminism the most which is the most oppressed cross sections of society. So, I believe that feminism needs to lift up people that are on the front lines when it comes to sexual violence which are people that engage in sex work whether or not that's for survival or choice, not just sex slavery of sex trafficking. But also, trans women, disabled women, people that are often overlooked within society or have the least rights need the most access to feminism.”

I feel she’s co-opting and misrepresenting and she’s getting away with it because of ignorant sloppy journalism.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Munroe, at points in her life, has had privilege over biological women. At this point, Munroe does not have that privilege. Come out of your hateful bubble. Can you really imagine what it would feel like to exist in world where the vast majority of people still laugh and question your very existence. I do not think there is a person that suffers more on this earth than a black biological woman, yet, I would still rather this space vs becoming a transwoman What you're so scared of I do not know. But what I do know is those that have presided over the most hateful acts in history have almost always done so because of fear. Thank God MN is not a representation of the progressive voice, white women included

Agree with all this - I just changed the c word because I see someone's reported your post for using it and it's a good post well said that there's no reason to come down for (apart from the c word that people on here tend to report)

This was the post you agreed with Lemonade, you specifically say you agree with the point that Bergdorf had male privilege and now doesn’t.

I'm nor sure that you actually understand what privilege means in a social construction context Lemonade.

It's not Monopoly money. You don't just retain a bit, lose a bit and it not make a jot of difference to anyone in the world other than who you're playing against at that moment in time.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Didn't realise Bergdorf had written a new shit article for Glamour telling women how to woman, I was thinking of one of the other ones.

There’s some right corkers in there, especially the bit about who qualifies for feminism (as if it’s Universal Credit or something.) Spoilers- not most women here.

People who think poor MB has no male privilege need to give their head a wobble.

Do you think all dissenting opinions are the same person or something?
Genuinely baffled!
Read back, only last page. Someone said "Lemonade still hasn't answered this question" - so I did.
I don't even bloody remember what Home said about it, as I'm not them.
We're separate.
This is batshit

I’d read that Glamour article to get a handle on what MB thinks of women.

My mistake, the one I was thinking of was Grazia, not Glamour. MB has written other how to woman better articles for Glamour though.

twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/968439202462470144?s=20

graziadaily.co.uk/life/opinion/munroe-bergdorf-women-getting-feminism-wrong/

Amusing summary by Meghan Murphy:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/02/27/munroe-bergdorf-like-please-keep-vaginas-feminism/

This was the post you agreed with Lemonade, you specifically say you agree with the point that Bergdorf had male privilege and now doesn’t

Yes, as in she won't have the exact same level of male privilege she grew up with due to transitioning.
Doesn't mean she won't face oppression or lose some of the privilege.

Yes, as in she won't have the exact same level of male privilege she grew up with due to transitioning.

In what sense? Can you quantify the amount of male privilege which remains?

How much male privilege or lack of it, do you think, is required to tell females not to mention their own biological issues at a women's march?

Unfortunately, there's a lot of really unhelpful feminism out there

Sorry that it's so unhelpful to you, Munroe Bergdorf. We'll try to better centre Munroe Bergdorf issues in future. we won't

Does anyone else feel they’ve entered the Twilight Zone when it comes to reading MB?

God forbid a woman should be unhelpful to MB.

ripples101
OP it is obvious from the first few lines of your post why you were blocked. You didn't ask anything constructive about MB's post, you just displayed pettyness and white-fragility and got blocked for it instead of having a POC explain to a white person what racial privilege is. Again. You have no-one to blame but yourself. It had nothing to do with being trans, women's rights, or even JKR.

In the midst of the BLM protests, with POC in the US, the UK and beyond having their voices heard and maybe even listened to by mainstream society in an unprecedented way, a rich white person pops up, seemingly oblivious to what is going on in the world around her, to grab the spotlight for her own reasons. MB, a POC, is perfectly within their rights to find this irritating in and of itself, regardless of anything else.

Home2018 pointed out this and more in a powerful, humbling post and was almost entirely ignored or misconstrued, and from the looks of it gave up, and I can't say I blame them. What should have brought the thread back to the point (ie "Why oh why was I banned by the beastly MB?) and maybe provoked some reflection and humility instead devolved into crude talk about sports privilege, bird privilege, what-exactly-do-we-mean-by-privilege? You even quoted and questioned her without name-checking, which seems like bad etiquette if nothing else, and I know what that feels like.

OP I'm trans, and know almost nothing about MB, but from what you have written I don't support you. I do hope to hear more from Home2018 though, if she can stomach it.

I do hope to hear more from Home2018 though, if she can stomach it

There was some great points well made from Home2018

Um, has the OP actually said that they are white?

Can you show white-fragility if you're not white?

head actually explodes

You didn't ask anything constructive about MB's post, you just displayed pettyness and white-fragility and got blocked for it instead of having a POC explain to a white person what racial privilege is

Been following the Black Lives Matters hashtag and blog posts past few weeks, reading articles etc.
I've seen that a lot.
(I KNOW this isn't to do with MB, before anyone starts. but it is to do with what OP asked.)
Seen that a lot, as in asking a question that I as a white person thinks is a genuine question, I can see why people who aren't white get tired of explaining.
Especially if they were to get the Why would you assume that because someone is white they have privilege? That's actually racist I did at the beginning of the thread on answering. You can see why they'd probably think "oh feck offffff" and not answer/block.
As I said, pre-empting all the crap.
No idea if the OP is white or not of course, but it does come across as "an explain to me" question.

Top is quoting MadBadDaddy, bold function fail

In the midst of the BLM protests, with POC in the US, the UK and beyond having their voices heard and maybe even listened to by mainstream society in an unprecedented way, a rich white person pops up, seemingly oblivious to what is going on in the world around her, to grab the spotlight for her own reasons. MB, a POC, is perfectly within their rights to find this irritating in and of itself, regardless of anything else.

In the midst of a wide range of other issues, a woman who has very clearly thoroughly researched the misogynist strain within trans activism, has spoken up about something that impacts on women and children. Yes, how dare she. How dare she have 'her own reasons' to care about something, whereas anyone supporting BLM... what, exactly?

There will always be a reason to tell women to shut up.

Seen that a lot, as in asking a question that I as a white person thinks is a genuine question, I can see why people who aren't white get tired of explaining.

Average person of colour getting tired of explaining and simply refusing to engage? Absolutely, completely understandable. Someone who has set themselves up as an activist, at least in part, and who is a public figure? Boring explanations are the least difficult part and tiring part of actual effective activism.

It's a bit rich of MBD to tell posters off for bad etiquette in the same post that they're accusing someone who hasn't shared their ethnicity of white frailty.

Home2018 accused the whole thread of being white, and OP didn't feel like weighing in then?

@PamDenick

Does anyone else feel they’ve entered the Twilight Zone when it comes to reading MB?

I feel I have entered the Twilight Zone reading this thread.

The OP voiced a legitimate concern which was then dismissed by a number of posters dismissing OPs concerns and focusing on MB.

It is shocking.

And we now are joined by few posters who have been less than honest in previous threads who are trying to twist the narrative.

I'm sorry, OP. Your concerns are valid and should not be dismissed by people who cannot see past their own agenda on gender (not sex).

This thread is so interesting. Just read the whole lot!

Hello op not seen you here before.

You know why mb blocked you. Surely? You questioned what was written rather than applauding.

I'm not on Twitter myself but that would seem clear. Obviously you are not responsible for anyone but yourself so don't feel bad! Like you say in your OP.

Highlights of the thread for me so far:

Someone says transwomen are being murdered lots. Someone else days hold on demographics, country, job etc is the rate out of step. Someone else says women get murdered lots. Someone else says, men get murdered more. So outcome is. Women should proritise murder rate of both transwomen and men above women!

That was a good read.

Next up was the idea that women have privilege over transwomen because we are the sex that gets pregnant and gives birth. Erm...

Interesting how sex is irrelevant until it's to say women have privilege!
There was an odd list about who gets the best deal when it comes to getting pregnant... Which seemed to overlook the massive cost to women and girls globally and through history because of this. Tiny bit of an oversight?

There was a long conversation about oppression Olympics which got very odd.
Most of the women on these boards are interested in structural inequality. The original meaning of intersection of oppression is just true. Some groups in society are privileged over others. Men over women. White over black. Abled over disabled. Rich over poor. The point of this is not to tot up points and put people on a scale. From a feminist perspective. However it's been subverted so that is what happens. In this case MB invokes JR whiteness, non transness and wealth as a reason she should STFU. But it's not about individuals. Or it shouldn't be. And their personal points on a scale. The most oppressed people in the world are not on Twitter. If MB wants to hear from them then MB will need to look to other sources. It's also an English language site predominantly. Around the world other SM is more popular. This never seems to be considered?

I liked the idea that feminity is a privilege. It is a set of behaviours and attire etc that is most definitely socially constructed. It's also a major issue for women and girls the world over. It's oppressive. As masculinity is for many men. Many women in this board find the constraints of femininity unsettling, uncomfortable. That is why they are feminists, some (like me) from before I had a word for it.

And that recent MB article is gobsmscking.

For the avoidance of doubt I am more than happy for MB to talk about
Race
Being trans
Their experiences growing up
Probably more

I am not happy for MB to talk as a woman and tell women what they should and should not do/ talk about. MB is a transwoman. Talk about that. It's a big deal.

I mean this:

'All of our parts of ourselves impact on each. I didn't really think feminism was for me because it wasn't for me. It was mainly focused around the rights of white women and women who could produce babies. I'm obviously neither so it was only really when I figured out that, I could really pick my own identity and figure out a way to cope within a society that really does invalidate every single part of me, on a level.'

No, feminism is not about white women and women who can produce babies. Although the babies part, so readily dismissed as a non issue, is a pretty fucking big deal for women and girls all over the world.
And white women? Did MB think, hmm. There are lots of women in the world who aren't in prominently white countries. What are they up to?
Did MB Google?
Maybe come across the women in South Korea who have been agitating and marching over sexually motivated crimes against women and girls and the lacklustre response from the authorities?
Maybe come across all the activism in India over so many horrific cases of 'honour' killings, rape, murder, acid attacks?
Swing by the fistula foundation and think about why it was set up?
Consider the rights of women in Saudi Arabia?
Investigate the situation with abortion globally, including women and girls being imprisoned for miscarrying?
Maybe look up the situation for women in DRC. South Africa rape stats.

And so on and so on.

Nope. Feminism is for white women. And 'women who can produce babies'.

Produce. Yes feminists globally are very vocal about reproductive choice. Because, well I listed some examples above.

This person has no interest in feminism apart from leveraging it against women.

Sorry that was long. It is a long thread!