Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Male people who identify as women are not oppressed by women

Trans women do have a disadvantage over biological women whether you want to acknowledge that or not though.

Please explain how transwomen suffer disadvantage compared to women. Show your workings.

I've often thought men are blimmin lucky to be able to pee successfully standing up. Especially since lockdown when it feels like we can't get 10 minutes into a fun country walk without me feeling like I need to go damn pregnancy knackering my pelvic floor, who the hell would want that?.

So an inconvenience to my day which stems from biology giving me different parts to a guy.

Does this give him a privilege over me? Because to me it's comparable yet it feels a bit daft to say he does ...

I recently read a post on another thread which said the only thing the female body can do which tye Male one can't is make and carry a baby. It's as if some men can't even bear us having that, even though we haven't asked for it and, as others here have pointed out, all the ways it oppresses is throughout life.

I have real fears of how surrogacy could be massively exploited soon as it's a way for a TW to become a "mother" but without any health or body complications .

Back to Munroe B:
www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/23/why-did-trans-women-lead-the-womens-march/

Ok reading m last post I want to clarify that last para a wee bit ...

I'm not comfortable with surrogacy for anyone. Wombs are not rentals. I do think a persons ability to be a good parent has nowt to do with their sex or sexual orientation. A trans person just by definition is neither better nor worse than another person at being a parent.

Just in case anyone accuses me of transphobia or being a bigot.

Yes I agree. I think surrogacy should be banned.

So now that we have sorted sex based privilege as a foundation for individual privilege, please tell me again how transwomen as a group have less privilege than a woman?

Since when did privilege become a competition anyway?

I am responding directly to the list you made, where you explicitly ordered straight women, lesbians and transwomen in a privilege stack!

Of course I understand the intersections, I made three massive posts about it on the previous pages, which you rebuffed as ‘sweetly naive’.

This whole thread is based on Munroe building a privilege stack in order to frame Munroeself as less privileged than JK Rowling (and thus more entitled to the oppressed persons talking stick).

OP pointed this out to Munroe and got blocked, came here fo have a conversation about about how accusations of privilege are being used to stop debate.

Now we’re almost up to 400 posts and you are trying to convince us that transwomen have less reproductive privilege than biological women, I am trying to explain that it doesn’t make any sense to compare the two.

Straight women, lesbian women, transwomen.

One of these things is not like the others

Duck, swan, cat

Does the cat have less swimming privilege or is it completely nonsensical to put them on the same list as two swimming birds?

Your ranking of straight woman, lesbian woman, transwoman only makes sense if you also believe that men have less reproductive privilege than women?

In which case we are at MRA bingo levels of discourse, and if not, then why did you compile the list in the first place?

Siting transwomen at the bottom of a stack in category they don’t actually belong to is, as far as I can work out, a rhetorical trick designed to overwrite the axis of male/female with cis/trans - this is the exact same mechanism that Munroe employs when instructing women not to mention female biology at a women’s rights protest.

"Disadvantage over" is an interesting way to phrase things in relation to the whole Oppression Olympics idea.

And yes, surrogacy should be banned. The fact that it exists tells us who has privilege, and guess what? It's the buyer, not the seller.

Sorry I derailed though. I need to get better at filtering my thoughts before posting.

@Winesalot

So now that we have sorted sex based privilege as a foundation for individual privilege, please tell me again how transwomen as a group have less privilege than a woman?

Still no answer. I am deeply unsurprised.

Siting transwomen at the bottom of a stack in category they don’t actually belong to is, as far as I can work out, a rhetorical trick designed to overwrite the axis of male/female with cis/trans - this is the exact same mechanism that Munroe employs when instructing women not to mention female biology at a women’s rights protest.

YY. And we can all see it.

If you have a position of power and you notice that group X does a lot better than group Y, and no reason can be found to explain it besides prejudice or discrimination, then you can work on remedying that. Average Joe saying to Average Jane, "I acknowledge my privilege over you as a man, but you have privilege over me because I'm gay and you're not" is not beneficial to anyone and inevitably turns into a competition over who has it easier. I don't think it was designed that way but when it's taken from looking at groups to looking at individuals that is what happens.

And a lot of it is really talking about luck or coveting. Some people are luckier than others. Some are lucky in one way but not so lucky in another way. A transwoman can't carry a child but a woman can. It is true but that doesn't make it a form of privilege. Women won't lose the ability to carry children and transwomen won't gain it. On a personal individual level we might feel bad for a person who can't do something that they wish they could do, but that's just life and it affects us all.

Yes. wrongside. I find it something perpetuated as a basis for eroding women’s rights. Just like the murder rates higher than women and suicide rates being the highest that do not really stand up when they are checked. Yes, suicide rates are high and there should be lots of independent research (ie. Completely unbiased) into why and how this can be addressed. I cannot frankly understand why this has not been invested in although with robust studies as to how appropriate the current treatment options really are.

I am yet to see a plausible and considered explanation to the most marginalized and vulnerable rhetoric as well in light of how powerful the lobby groups are.

I seem to be lacking the privilege to be a biological parent without risking death, permanent body changes, maternity discrimination and loss of earnings. And no surrogacy is not an option, it’s exploitation. Every woman who gestates and gives birth is risking her health and her income. No man risks his life to fertilise an egg.

Not 'although', along with

Hang on, does this mean that I, as a white person, can adopt stereotypes associated with black people, declare myself 'a real black person', tell anyone who disagrees that they are a bigot, and claim that I am actually more oppressed than black people because they have 'cis black privilege'?

Oh wait no, of course I can't, because that would be fucking ludicrous and offensive.

The question is, how is it any different when men do it to women?

HH160bpm "Every woman who gestates and gives birth is risking her health and her income."

Yes, excellent points.

On another note to produce eggs for fertility treatment requires medical treatment described as invasive and again involves a risk of death.

@Highperbolay

Hang on, does this mean that I, as a white person, can adopt stereotypes associated with black people, declare myself 'a real black person', tell anyone who disagrees that they are a bigot, and claim that I am actually more oppressed than black people because they have 'cis black privilege'?

Oh wait no, of course I can't, because that would be fucking ludicrous and offensive.

The question is, how is it any different when men do it to women?

Yes indeed. Noone ever answers.

I feel like all this talk about privilege (“You’re more privileged than me because of this”, “No, you’re more privileged than me because of that”) isn’t really that helpful in moving the discussion forward. A POC said on another thread that it’s part of the discourse of academia (race studies, gender studies) that has spilled over into the real world where it doesn’t really belong and I think they might have a point. I’m happy to accept that there is such a thing as white privilege but I’m struggling with the idea that biological women have “c*s” privilege. Speaking from my own experience, I get shit from men every time I leave the house, the same as I expect many trans women do. It doesn’t feel like a privilege. As for white women having privilege over black men... Well, I think one could argue both ways. But as I said, I don’t think it’s helpful to argue about who has more privilege. The truth is that racism is not OK and sexism is not OK and we can be concerned about both those issues at the same time. It’s not either/or.

Also, I can’t remember who it was upthread telling everybody to get out of the MN echo chamber and listen and learn other views... Do you think MN is the only source of information that the posters here look at? I for one have read quite widely around the topic and taken in and considered many different perspectives before forming the beginnings of an opinion. MN is simply one of the few places left where one can ask questions or raise concerns about certain aspects of the trans movement without automatically being called a transphobe.

Going back to MB... I’m shocked by how often trans activists try to conflate race and gender. A friend of mine is a TRA (but not trans herself). When I said I didn’t think trans women were women (at least not in the same way as biological women, though I would be happy to treat them as such to a certain extent), she replied with “Well, do you think black women are women?” I was like, What sort of argument is that?! Nobody is questioning the womanhood of black women or suggesting that they are somehow lesser women than white women except apparently TRAs.

I think MB mentioned JKR being white as part of MB’s general hatefulness towards anybody who is not like herself.

Privilege is becoming less meaningful and more of a distraction technique by the day. When did we forget that we are human beings with real lives and not abstract concepts?

That’s what I was trying to say above, albeit far less eloquently and succintly than you did!

Well said HarryHarry

I’m reading through the replies and wanted to read them all before I post again, but I was stopped dead in my tracks by this post written by @Home2018

Quote: “ I suspect the OP has already found out that you're not the trans-neutral group that you pretended to be for the first 10 posts 😂

OP you came to find white allyship but the trans hate couldn't contain itself.

I suggest you try to listen and learn. Following bigots as an 'other's will eventually result in them turning that hate/fear on to you.”

Your suspicions are incorrect. Categorically incorrect

I have found posters on mumsnet, especially on the feminism board to be genuine, and genuinely concerned in regards to issues that affect them.

I have found the vast majority of posters in these boards be willing to engage in debate, again and again, instead of trying to shut down debate.

My voice on here has at times been questioned, but I’ve never once been silenced. Never once been ridiculed. Never once been blocked. In turn, I have never once tried to silence anyone here, or report anyone here, if they expressed a view that I didn’t agree with, or simply asked a question that I may find uncomfortable.

My issue here is not with anyone but Munroe.

Who has done exactly what I can’t stand. Munroe has silenced me, taken away my voice in the influential circle that she resides. I can’t even speak for myself amongst trans circles, despite being trans myself, if Munroe is involved. I’ve been shut down. My voice means nothing, all because I had the audacity to question something that she said.

So sorry home2018, but you are wrong in your suspicion, and please, I would appreciate it if you didn’t use me and your suspicions of me to further your own gain.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

You posted the following:

“I didn't say the OP gave shit to MB. If you read my post properly, you'll see I said that if I was MB who daily got shit from people, I don't really blame her for if it was a case of sometimes not engaging and just thinking "Oh God, not another one."
Obviously I'm not her, so no idea if that's the case but it could be - as it'd be draining.”

————

That is the pedestal that Munroe has placed (or found) herself upon. She has a duty to engage, counter, debate, discuss. She is placing herself in (and is finding herself) in an influential position. She should not take that position lightly.

Should a politician silence, block, delete any message that comes their way, simply because they don’t like what the message has to say? Or find the questions such a message posits troublesome?

No, they should not. And if they do, then they are not fit to hold such a position.

I was not abusive to Munroe in asking my question. Yet I received no response. I was blocked, removed, and therefore deemed irrelevant.

I will ask you a question lemonade. In all your posts where you are seemingly intent on being accepting of trans people, why can you not be accepting of me, a trans person? Why have you presumed that I am wrong? Why are you defending Munroe as opposed to defending me?

For all your virtue signalling, all I’m personally getting from you Lemonade, is that my being silenced was justified.

So tell me, in fact tell everyone here...

...whose voice is it that you actually are trying to represent?