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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 06/07/2020 15:44

Could we not argue for a form of regulation that post op you would be recognised as your preferred gender and allowed to use their spaces. But preop while still presenting with the sexed anatomy of the opposite gender you would use your sexed facilities. Ultimately at this point it wouldn't be a issue as you wouldn't be able to tell the transman/women apart from men/women? It would also remove the ability of trans status to be used and abused by men to access womens spaces.

You don't seem to understand how the GRA works or what 'trans' means. No 'op' is required to change your legally recognised sex, and most 'trans' people are 'no-op' in the sense that they don't have any surgery involving their genitalia, nor do they intend to.

OldCrone · 06/07/2020 15:47

@Justabadwife

I was thinking about the toilet situation the other day and came to a worrying conclusion.

If transwoman have to use the mens toilets as that is their biological sex.

Then transmen have to use the ladies.

Any man could walk in and say they were a transman (biologically a woman) and could therefore unable to be challenged.

I dont know what the answer is but it made me quite uneasy, and I say this as the wife of a transwoman. (Who has a radar key for other reasons, so toilets not a problem)

What you're missing here is that separate sex services are for the privacy and dignity of all, but also for the safety of women. It's not as simple as 'if this applies to men it must also apply to women'.

Why do you think a transman like Buck Angel couldn't use the men's? Do you think the men would kick out someone who looked like that?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/07/2020 15:56

If men's lavatories have cubicles as well as urinals, he could use one of those? (I have no idea whether he has had genital surgery or not: I expect I must have been told at some point, but my interest in other people's genitals is mostly limited to those of my own sexual partners.)

Ninkanink · 06/07/2020 16:00

Here is my position on this subject, as I haven’t yet set it out on this thread:

‘Your average transgender individual’ is no longer your average transgender individual. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the vast majority are necessarily of the type that just wants to exist peacefully and go about their own business.

There is hatred and vitriol overwhelmingly from one side of this ‘debate’ (hint: it’s not actually a debate). Please don’t try to claim that there is any kind of equivalence, because there isn’t. If you can’t see that you need to do a lot more reading.

If any of you who are new to this discussion want to know what current trans ideology looks like, perhaps read up on what behaviours apparently fall under this umbrella (according to Stonewall’s own definition).

There is a reason why women are having to push back so forcefully on this.

Women did not cause this. Women are not to blame for this.

It’s not about those decent men who aren’t predatory, rapists, killers; It never is.

However, tens of thousands of women and girls in this country are harmed in some way by men every year. Millions and millions throughout the world. Those men should not be allowed into women’s spaces, regardless of how those men identify, what they feel like, what they want, how they look or choose to dress, or what title they have thought of to describe themselves, or misappropriated.

As there is absolutely no way of sorting the good from the indifferent from the very bad indeed, all men must be excluded.

Even if there was a way to sort and define and establish that all the relevant men were good, decent, kind men, they still should not be allowed to enter women’s spaces, because a male presence, however benign, is very directly harmful to a certain number of women. A male presence, however benign, is not comfortable for women and girls in their very private, vulnerable spaces. Decent men all know this. Which is why they do not want to be in women’s spaces.

It makes no difference what the individual thinks or feels or wishes to be true. It does not make it true. It does not negate biological fact, nor material reality.

It does not matter how they dress, what they look like, whether they have taken hormones, had surgery (very few do, in fact) or whatever else the case may be.

Sex matters. Biology matters.

Women do NOT have to have suffered sexual abuse, predatory behaviour, violence, rape or in fact any harm at all, in order to be entitled to protection from potentially suffering those things. It is enough to say no, I am not okay with this. I do not consent. My daughters do not consent. My sisters, my mother, my friends, women I don’t know and will never meet, do not consent. NO.

Women do not want men in their spaces.

The vast majority of men do not want to be in women’s spaces.

That does not take away from the rights of transgender individuals. They have every right to live peacefully without fear from harm. But they cannot gain that end by appropriating spaces that are sex-segregated in order to protect women’s dignity, privacy and safety.

I must stress that even if you no longer have a penis, you are biologically still a man.

That truth might be painful, but we all have to deal with many painful truths.

You are entitled to a safe space; you have a right to peaceful existence without harm or fear of harm.

But you are not entitled to my safe space, nor that of my daughters, nor that of any other woman.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 06/07/2020 16:01

Re the toilets, I've seen it suggested that there's a toilet for women only and then what is currently the gents becomes available to all. I can't imagine many women choosing to use the gents (except at concerts or theatres at the end of the interval!), but it solves a lot of the problem.

titchy · 06/07/2020 16:03

It's pretty easy to tell trans women from natal women tbh. Very few, if any, pass in real life. Trans men pass far far better, and I'd argue therefore are pretty safe in male loos. The privacy and dignity argument still holds of course - men do have a right to it. But I'm not sure it's up to natal women to sort that one out, or to sort out the issues that trans women think they have in accessing male toilets - don't forget mostly we accepted the very very few we came across - the 'genuine transsexual'. TRAs buggered that one up for them.

Women campaigned for safe public loos a hundred years ago. Other groups are welcome to do the same.

monkeyonthetable · 06/07/2020 16:03

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime Thank you. I thought I'd read all OP's posts but I missed those. So... has there still never been a transgender person on these threads willing to listen to biological women's reasons for feeling threatened (not the same as hatred) without fury or flouncing.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 16:07

Yes there has. Quite a few transwomen do/have posted here.

Some left, felt uncomfortable shoehorning their way into women's discussions about women.

Others are still here and will give their opinion on a wide range of topics.

There may even be an AMA from one.

There are a couple of transmen too... that I know of.

Ninkanink · 06/07/2020 16:12

Just to add, my comment above relates mainly to physical spaces (public toilets, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres, refuges, swimming pool changing areas/showers, school toilets, lingerie changing areas &/or bra fitting services, to name a few examples) because that is topical here. It does not go into protections in law and society (sports, employment, equality to name a few examples) which of course are just as important, if not more so. Not to mention the obvious and overarching principle that no one should be compelled to deny material reality and biological fact.

justabadwife · 06/07/2020 16:13

@OldCrone I dont understand why it only applies one way, because surely pre op transmen are at risk using the mens toilets, while also being a risk to ladies if they use the ladies toilets.

Like I said im not sure what the answer is, if 3rd gender neutral spaces weren't seen as a transphobic thing then that would be great.

Justabadwife · 06/07/2020 16:21

I think the problem for me and this debate is because of my limited experience with transwoman (DP) i think all transpeople are genuine and none of them would have an ulterior motive. While I know that's not the case, in my head every person is like my DP, genuinely dysphoric and on the very very long waiting list for surgery.

NotMyTimes · 06/07/2020 16:35

@Justabadwife

Can you not see how that would be the same as me saying 'My DH is a lovely man who genuinely respects women and would never rape or sexually assault one so I can't comprehend how any man ever would'.

Just because individuals within a group (men or transwomen), or even the majority of a group (men or transwomen) aren't a threat to another group (women) doesn't mean we shouldn't protect the at risk group (women) because the 'bad' ones are rare. Even one woman sexually assaulted is too many. The safety of woman can not be compromised for the comfort or even safety of transwomen. That's not to say transwomen shouldn't be safe. We should find an alternative way to keep them safe - their safety can not be at the expense of women's safety.

That would be like saying let everyone take Swiss Army knife on planes because the vast vast majority of people will have them for the practicality of a bottle opener and tooth pick and the comfort to know they can use the knife to protect themselves, and the fact that a few individuals might use them for nefarious reasons is so rare it's negligible. No matter how tiny the risk is you can't put people at risk even if it makes other people feel more comfortable or safe, you have to maintain keeping the majority safe whilst also finding a way to keep the minority safe too without putting the majority at any risk.

Highperbolay · 06/07/2020 16:36

Could we not argue for a form of regulation that post op you would be recognised as your preferred gender and allowed to use their spaces. But preop while still presenting with the sexed anatomy of the opposite gender you would use your sexed facilities. Ultimately at this point it wouldn't be a issue as you wouldn't be able to tell the transman/women apart from men/women? It would also remove the ability of trans status to be used and abused by men to access womens spaces.

I agree that it is really important to emphasise again that the majority of transwomen have not had full GRS and still have fully intact penises. I really think that so many people still think of 'old school transsexuals' who are so dysphoric that they have gone all the way and had their penis removed, and think they are the only people who want access to women's spaces.

Two of the most prominent UK transwomen, Paris Lees and Munroe Bergdorf, still, as far as I'm aware, have their penises. Normally I wouldn't give a shit what someone does or doesn't do with their bodies, it's their body and their life, and I can understand someone not wanting to part with their todger. As Magdalen Berns so articulately said when Alex Drummond was talking about the prospect of surgery 'terrifying' him - 'Of course it terrifies you Alex, they chop your cock off'!

But it's so important that people know what we are talking about here, we are talking about penises in women's spaces. It does actually matter what is in someone's pants when that someone might have something in there that has been used countless times over history to harm women.

endofthelinefinally · 06/07/2020 16:40

Could we not argue for a form of regulation that post op you would be recognised as your preferred gender and allowed to use their spaces. But preop while still presenting with the sexed anatomy of the opposite gender you would use your sexed facilities. Ultimately at this point it wouldn't be a issue as you wouldn't be able to tell the transman/women apart from men/women? It would also remove the ability of trans status to be used and abused by men to access womens spaces.

How on earth would that work though? In practical terms?

Highperbolay · 06/07/2020 16:41

Can you not see how that would be the same as me saying 'My DH is a lovely man who genuinely respects women and would never rape or sexually assault one so I can't comprehend how any man ever would'.

Exactly. And as it happens my DH is a lovely man who is in no way a threat to women. But that doesn't mean he should be allowed in women's spaces. Because he is of the sex class that is high risk. He is 'tarred with the same brush' as sex offenders when it comes to single sex spaces.

And I still don't understand at what objective (objective as in policy and law can be formulated upon it) point a transwoman comes out of the high risk sex category of male and into the low risk category of female?

Justabadwife · 06/07/2020 16:52

@NotMyTimes I completely get it. I do understand that it comes across that I dont though. 😀

TheSingingKettle49 · 06/07/2020 16:55

@endofthelinefinally

Could we not argue for a form of regulation that post op you would be recognised as your preferred gender and allowed to use their spaces. But preop while still presenting with the sexed anatomy of the opposite gender you would use your sexed facilities. Ultimately at this point it wouldn't be a issue as you wouldn't be able to tell the transman/women apart from men/women? It would also remove the ability of trans status to be used and abused by men to access womens spaces.

How on earth would that work though? In practical terms?

I’d still be inclined to think that any man who wants access to women’s spaces where they will be undressed or hidden from public view is exactly the sort of man you wouldn’t want there.
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/07/2020 17:05

or letting transmen have periods

I know this was many pages back, but what does this mean? Transmen are going to have periods regardless of how any of us feel about, unless/until large doses of testosterone stop that process or they pass the age of menopause, because that's just how transmen's bodies work, because they're female. Other people do not have the power to either let or not let their ovaries shed unused eggs once a month.

RedDogsBeg · 06/07/2020 17:10

The issue with toilets and changing rooms could be very easily be solved -a third gender neutral space, everyone provided for, no-one left out, everyone happy. However, TRA's and their supporters need to drop the ridiculous notion that this is somehow othering or transphobic, it's not. The only reason they shout that it is othering or transphobic is because ensuring transwomen have free and unfettered access into female single sex areas validates transwomen and woe betide anyone who objects. Why should women and girls be used as props in someone's identity crisis?

OldCrone · 06/07/2020 17:15

[quote justabadwife]@OldCrone I dont understand why it only applies one way, because surely pre op transmen are at risk using the mens toilets, while also being a risk to ladies if they use the ladies toilets.

Like I said im not sure what the answer is, if 3rd gender neutral spaces weren't seen as a transphobic thing then that would be great.[/quote]
Can you explain exactly what you mean when you talk about 'pre op transmen'? Most transmen don't have genital surgery because the results are often unsatisfactory and there are other issues (taking skin grafts from the forearm for example).

Testosterone is a very powerful drug, which is why transmen who take testosterone look very male, but transwomen can nearly always be recognised as male even after years of cross-sex hormones and facial surgery. So I'm not sure what the relevance of 'pre-op' is in relation to transmen. Surely 'pre-testosterone' would be a more relevant measure - and a woman who simply identifies as a transman but has not taken testosterone would look like a woman, so there would be no problem.

Why do you think transmen pose a risk to women?

You also might like to think a bit about why gender neutral spaces are viewed as transphobic by TRAs.

Justabadwife · 06/07/2020 17:34

@OldCrone not pre testosterone, but not full transition if they are going that far. But at what point can transmen start using the mens toilets and not be at risk, if everyone can tell they are a biological woman.

It wasnt really that I dont want to share a space with a transman. It was that any man can say they're a transman and be unchallenged.

At what point is a transman allowed in the mens and a transwoman allowed in the ladies?

Datun · 06/07/2020 17:46

I’d still be inclined to think that any man who wants access to women’s spaces where they will be undressed or hidden from public view is exactly the sort of man you wouldn’t want there.

Exactly. The, but my mate is fine argument, is nonsense.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 17:49

I think the ' when can they....' is something that each individual has to deal with. It's a natural consequence of choices they have made. They must have thought about it.

Though that is part of the problem with self Id and rushing through the process. It reduces the time any individual spends pondering the possible issues they will encounter.

Datun · 06/07/2020 17:51

[quote Justabadwife]@OldCrone not pre testosterone, but not full transition if they are going that far. But at what point can transmen start using the mens toilets and not be at risk, if everyone can tell they are a biological woman.

It wasnt really that I dont want to share a space with a transman. It was that any man can say they're a transman and be unchallenged.

At what point is a transman allowed in the mens and a transwoman allowed in the ladies?[/quote]
Transmen, if their sex is known, or detected, will always be more at risk in the men's than the women's. Because men commit almost all sex crimes.

This is where the Ideology leads.

A woman feels so negative about her sex she wants to look like a man, but then risks detection.

It's madness that we are even talking about it like this. About where women should go to the toilet and men should go to the toilet and whether not they can adequately disguise themselves as the opposite sex in order to mitigate risk.

Stop teaching this ideology in schools, address misogyny and sexism, give girls access to feminism, and the concept of where a transman should urinate, will be obsolete.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/07/2020 17:54

Justabadwife
But at what point can transmen start using the mens toilets and not be at risk, if everyone can tell they are a biological woman.

I suspect that pragmatically the answer to that is likely to be "whenever they want", because predatory males looking for vulnerable women to terrify or assault are unlikely to seek for them in the men's toilets; the women's toilets are a far more likely place to find them.