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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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transdimensional · 05/07/2020 18:39

I remember in the 90s watching a Channel Four documentary about transsexuals and I couldn't understand how these men could possibly believe they were women in men's bodies. What does it mean to "feel like" a woman or "feel like" a man?

In her book Shrier described how the California board of education encourages pre-school teachers to ask kids to make lists of colours/toys/activities preferred by boys and girls respectively. It all reinforces gender stereotypes. In due course, kids are taught that loads of people are born in the wrong bodies and encouraged to believe that it's so common that it may well be true of them too.
Of course, that's the US, but what happens there usually happens here sooner or later. Transgender Trend did a report on UK RSE teaching which was pretty worrying.

Alexandernevermind · 05/07/2020 19:39

Absolutely no hatred from me either for trans women. I acknowledge their need for a safe space. I have a problem with breast feeding my baby in what I assume to be a women only space (some of us still don't want to do this in front of men), or standing half dressed in a ladies toilet desperately trying to get period stains out of my clothing. It isn't as trivial as who's got what in the cubicle next to you. I really don't mind fully trans women using ladies toilets. Womens prisons, refuges and and sports teams are another matter.

caramac04 · 05/07/2020 19:40

@Igbee, your post is brilliant. Thank you

HandsOffMyRights · 05/07/2020 19:58

You've had some excellent responses OP.

Much fairer, much more welcoming and far more articulate than I've had on Twitter for asking a mere question as to what benefit women and girls get from opening our facilities and sports to males. I got sent dick pictures and an offer (like JK has had) about removing my ovaries. Oh, and the obligatory T*RF.

HidingFromDD · 05/07/2020 20:29

so, now you've been suitably educated and understand the position better, are you going to go on twitter and challenge the TRA on there about why they hate women so much? I get very offended at being accused of being transphobic because I have concerns around the misuse of legislation and the erosion of women's spaces. None of the information presented on here is new, yet you decided to throw 'transphobic' around without any consideration of whether it was accurate or not. And if you're not going to challenge the TRAs, and the 'suck my lady dick' commentators, ask yourself why not, and then think very hard about which is the hate group here.

StripeyBananas · 05/07/2020 20:37

Why are public toilets called "bathrooms " on threads about transsexual issues? Hmm

TheresGinInThis · 05/07/2020 21:22

I’ve been lurking on the gender critical threads, or what you perceive to be the hate threads, for a while. From my lurking, I would argue that the gender critical posters do not pose anything hateful but rather a simple question or statement of their lived experience. The hateful comments come from the TRA who cannot answer those questions or dislike that lived experience. TRA will then claim the gender critical feminists are dismissing trans people’s lived experience. Which is ironic.

I know these will have been discussed throughout the thread already but I’m going to add my personal examples and how it is something a trans woman has not, and will never, experience. Throughout my career, I have had numerous job interviews. These have been with a panel of men only, women only and mixed. Most of the panels that have included men have usually included questions about my personal circumstances, whether I have any caring responsibilities, whether I have a partner. You see, I’m a woman of child bearing age. In panels of women only I have never been asked any questions about my personal life as it simply isn’t relevant to my capabilities in doing my job. I have taken my rings off for job interviews, or a few days before to let the natural indentations fade. On the other hand, my husband was encouraged to include the fact that he was married in a promotion interview because it made him look settled and a safe bet. A trans woman, particularly one that has established their career before transitioning, does not face that particular workplace discrimination. I work in a male dominated industry, I was doing a project in which a female director had told males colleagues under her to report something to me every day. They ignored her, didn’t send me the information and when I questioned it, mansplained to me how wrong I’d got it. No apology when I provided evidence to prove that all of them were wrong. A trans woman might be taken less seriously than a male counterpart but they are still going to be taken more seriously than a female. A trans woman will have spent some time living as a boy and being seen by society as a boy. They won’t have been called bossy and doubted themselves because bossy is a negative word we attach to women and girls to undermine them. They’ll have been led to believe that they are better at maths and science because they have a Y chromosome. Trans people do face workplace discrimination but it is completely different to the workplace discrimination of women. They are two separate fights.

Bathrooms isn’t about stopping trans people using those spaces but rather men who will use the trans to legitimately access those spaces. When I was 18, I was on a night out with friends and went to the bathroom by myself. As I was washing my hands, a drunk man came into the ladies. He informed me that I was in the wrong bathroom. I told him I wasn’t, how many men’s toilets had tampons machines? He looked around and seemingly agreed with my assessment but then told me he wasn’t going to go to the men’s bathroom. He then clocked my appearance, dressed up for a night out I had a low cut top on. Even drunk, his glare made me uncomfortable. He asked me if I’d like to get a drink after he’d finished and I replied no, thank you. He was still in the bathroom entrance and blocking the door. He’s hammered but I’m in heels, so my odds of escape aren’t increased. He continues to make inappropriate comments to me, leering. Fortunately, I think his pissed state and need to use the bathroom trumped his interest in me and I made a beeline out of there, dragging my friends from the bar to find a new place. The noise in the bar was loud but if he had attacked, I would have to scream as loud as I could and hope that someone in the corridor to the toilets heard. Obviously these men will always find a way to get access to female only spaces if they want. The difference then would have been that on someone else or the bar staff upon finding him in the ladies, he’d have been thrown out. Now, he could simply state that he was a trans woman. Then I’d be the hysterical women scared off a sexual assault from a trans woman that obviously wouldn’t harm anyone. Let’s make no mistake, this predator isn’t a trans woman and nor is my comment saying that trans people are predators but predators can use that excuse. Which inevitably reflects badly on the trans community as they are being unfairly repressed by predators. By respecting single sex spaces, you are actually making sure that the trans community isn’t seen as predatory and men aren’t given a free pass by claiming to be something they aren’t.

I have no hate for trans people. However, I think it’s trans women that are shouting the loudest, when actually it’s trans men that need the most protection. Trans men have female biology, they will typically smaller, slower and not as physically strong as men but using men’s spaces. A trans woman still has the strength, speed and height advantage over women. Even a trans woman that doesn’t pass is going to be at less risk than a trans man. A trans man who doesn’t look masculine enough is at a very real risk from men and not just in men’s spaces, in all spaces. Like women. Trans men will have doctors minimising their female medical problems, telling their periods are no big deal when actually they could be suffering with endometriosis. In conjunction with possibly being told their gender dysphoria is in their head. Trans men will face workplace discriminations of being a woman and then being trans. Yet the only narrative that is important is that trans women are women. Trans men by the virtue of being raised a woman for however short a time are not in the habitat of shouting loudest to get what they want. Creating a third gender neutral space would be in the interest of trans men (with trans women also benefitting) but trans women don’t want that and there in lies the problem.

transdimensional · 05/07/2020 21:23

Why are public toilets called "bathrooms " on threads about transsexual issues?

Imported terminology (along with the imported gender ideology). The US is quite a euphemistic culture - they say "tidbit" rather than "titbit", and they invented the word "rooster" to replace "cock" in the animal sense, to avoid embarrassment.

Bananabixfloof · 05/07/2020 21:24

@Wearywithteens

This is just so depressing that women have to spell it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again to illuminate the facts to one single wokester at a time...
Agree so much. Its tedious and will happen again. We direct to the break it down thread and still the same questions. But we carry on one wokester at a time for all those that just read. They too can see where we come from and over time they too see the valid points we make.
TehBewilderness · 05/07/2020 21:44

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Aesopfable · 05/07/2020 21:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TehBewilderness · 05/07/2020 21:53

Do you reckon Mumsnet gets more or fewer hits when they host misogynists on the Feminism & Women's Rights board?

Aesopfable · 05/07/2020 21:54

Sorry got that the wrong way round: transwomen are just as likely to be predators as other men. There are a lot less transwomen so a predator is more likely to be a man who is not a transwomen . But they are all men.

NotTerfNorCis · 05/07/2020 22:05

It looks like the OP changed her mind a few hours ago after getting answers on this thread, and apologised for being naive - click on OP's posts 'see all'.

Bluebooby · 05/07/2020 22:09

Op it's a refreshing change (compared to other "why do you hate trans" type posts) that you have taken the time to read the responses and listen to what people are saying and I apologise as I mistook you for someone who just wanted to cause trouble, but I think I was wrong.

I think if you're unfamiliar with this debate, sometimes langauge might sound a bit harsh and not what you're used to, and that may sound like hate to your ears, but if you step back and look at it objectively, it usually isn't. I won't say there is no hate at all as I have not read everything and people are people.

Sometimes even the most mildly put questions or critiques get labelled as abusive. If you have read JK Rowling's recent letter you'll see, I think, a compassionate caring woman who has put a lot of thought in to what she says and measured her words carefully. Yet in return she's been told to "fuck off and die" and "suck my dick" and so on, by multiple people, mostly (all?) male. So make of that what you will.

OldCrone · 05/07/2020 22:22

48% of sex offenders in prison identify as transwomen.

I don't think so. There are over 13,000 male sex offenders in prison in the UK.

48% of transwomen in prison are sex offenders, though (60 out of 125).

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 05/07/2020 22:37

@StripeyBananas

Why are public toilets called "bathrooms " on threads about transsexual issues? Hmm
It’s an imported Americanism that doesn’t really apply - just makes me assume that whoever is using it hasn’t really thought through what they are saying, they are just repeating something they’ve read elsewhere.

I saw the term ‘UKQTIBIPOC’ being used earlier today. It stand for U.K. Queer, Trans, Intersex, Black, Indigenous, People of Colour.

Again, no independent thought has been applied before importing this North Americanism.

The last time I saw the term ‘indigenous’ in relation to the U.K. population it came from the odious Nick Griffin of the BNP!

Aesopfable · 05/07/2020 23:21

[quote OldCrone]48% of sex offenders in prison identify as transwomen.

I don't think so. There are over 13,000 male sex offenders in prison in the UK.

48% of transwomen in prison are sex offenders, though (60 out of 125).

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/[/quote]
Thanks. Yes you are right.

suggestionsplease1 · 05/07/2020 23:41

[quote OldCrone]48% of sex offenders in prison identify as transwomen.

I don't think so. There are over 13,000 male sex offenders in prison in the UK.

48% of transwomen in prison are sex offenders, though (60 out of 125).

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/[/quote]
I thought these stats did not identify whether they were transmen or transwomen? The report I read just referred to 125 transgender prisoners - where are you seeing the information that they are all natal male, now transwomen?

HeistSociety · 05/07/2020 23:49

FFS.

I think I'm going to start spamming trans forums and telling them they need to do more feminism.

I don't care less if trans people want to come here and discuss feminist topics from.a feminist (woman centred pov) but all you guys ever do is arrive to deliver a lecture.

It's boring. It's not feminist. It's a bloody waste of our time, space and energy. Which is, perhaps, the point.

I can't be doing with people so stupid that they think disagreement on treatment for minors and self ID = hate. Too dumb.

HeistSociety · 05/07/2020 23:51

@TehBewilderness

Do you reckon Mumsnet gets more or fewer hits when they host misogynists on the Feminism & Women's Rights board?
Presumably more, which is why they allow it.

It's very odd to me - one would think that misogynist perhaps would be discouraged from posting in Feminist Chat, but mods seem to feel it's ok.

HeistSociety · 05/07/2020 23:57

Also OP, can you get your original post edited to remove the photos please?

exwhyzed · 06/07/2020 00:06

@HeistSociety

Also OP, can you get your original post edited to remove the photos please?
Why?
Porridgeoat · 06/07/2020 00:19

Trans women commit offences at the same rate as males.

Statistics around male abuse of women show higher rates of abuse in shared sex facilities. Single sex facilities are safe for women.

The discussing verbal abuse and threats trans supporters and trans people heap on females is shocking. I’ve never seen anything like it!

HeistSociety · 06/07/2020 00:21

Because I don't come here to see images of half undressed people exemplifying gender stereotypes of masculinity and femininity, and the photos have nothing to do with feminism.

The point of them is to demonstrate how cosmetic surgery makes females into a manly stereotype, and males into a female stereotype - but feminists reject the stereotypes altogether, and certainly don't find cleaving to gender stereotypes 'successfully' as evidence that sex is mutable.