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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

12 yr old DD. Gender Dysphoria, sudden announcement

136 replies

Motherofajuggernaut · 30/06/2020 07:32

Hi
Title says it all really
Dd has just announced she is gender Dysphoric
We're all at sea

Not even sure where to begin.
Our reluctance to accept this carte blanche has been accusing of being transphobic. We're not but we are asking for time and open mindedness from ourselves and her.
It's clear there's been a lot of external social influence. Especially since lockdown, she's struggled to engage with school in any meaningful way and has been highly anxious.
She decided to break the news on the day of a family funeral where due to social distancing and travel etc only my husband attended when we would normally have all been there. Maximum impact
She came out in December as a lesbian we didn't skip a beat, sexuall preference is a non issue for us.
But now this...

We simply don't know where to begin

OP posts:
Aesopfable · 02/07/2020 09:45

@ILikePlayingGuitar

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents. Maybe you should look into that.

Best of luck!

They lobby for actions which fly in the face of good medical practice, they encourage children to chat to adults in secret chat rooms, they ignore much safeguarding, they have advised parents to visit quack doctors who have since been struck off (for doing what mermaids were sending children there for). They put huge amounts of confidential patient data onto a publically accessible website that was accessed by the public and didn’t even say ‘oops, sorry’...
Aesopfable · 02/07/2020 09:47

And that is before you consider the regressive, sexist, pseudoscientific clap-trap that Mermaids ‘train’ everyone in.

CatandtheFiddle · 02/07/2020 11:40

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents

I've read that the founder of one of these organisations (I think it was Mermaids?) took her young teen child to Thailand to have reassignment surgery that's illegal in the UK, and now also illegal in Thailand.

If that's correct, it's certainly a "reputation" but I'm not sure that gives me confidence about the counselling being "reputable."

makemyweek · 02/07/2020 12:56

Just wanted to say, I'm happy you have had a productive conversation with her. Keep talking. I think you are handling this sensibly.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 02/07/2020 13:09

Are you familiar with functional behaviours, Motherof?

They are most often discussed in relation to children with ASD or children who are misbehaving in school, but actually many of the weird stuff that kids and teens do can be assessed through the same lens.

The idea is that when a child ‘acts out’ in what appears to be an irrational way to adults, if you look carefully it is more rational than it first appeared:

This is an autism advice site, I can’t say as to whether it’s generally good for ASD advice but it was the clearest explanation of functional behaviours I found on the first page of google:

www.educateautism.com/behavioural-principles/functions-of-behaviour.html

If you think about these categories, what about a cross sex identity fits these that are relevant for your daughter?

As an example, using our own family:

#1 Social Attention
A person may engage in a certain behaviour to gain some form of social attention or a reaction from other people. For example, a child might engage in a behaviour to get other people to look at them, laugh at them, play with them, hug them or scold them.

A cross sex identity, or ‘coming out’ is an obvious attention grabber! In our case, we’d spent a year in and out of hospital with DsD’s seriously ill little step sister and her dad had started a new job while littlest sibling was in intensive care! So all eyes had been elsewhere for a while.

#2 Tangibles or Activities
Some behaviours occur so the person can obtain a tangible item or gain access to a desired activity. For example, someone might scream and shout until their parents buy them a new toy (tangible item) or bring them to the zoo (activity).

A cross sex identity is a great excuse for new things, clothes, bedroom decor, haircuts, even activities that might normally be stereotyped the other way (a sudden interest in ‘Male’ things might indicate a need to be near the male parent more often).

#3 Escape or Avoidance
Not all behaviours occur so the person can “obtain” something; many behaviours occur because the person wants to get away from something or avoid something altogether (Miltenberger, 2008).

There were two big ‘avoidance’ situations with my DsD - firstly, she was catcalled by an adult man for the first time (and dressing as a boy in baggy everything minimised the risk of this reoccurring) and secondly, she was being subjected to lesbophobic bullying in school changing rooms (‘don’t watch me getting undressed you gay peeve’ etc) and as a transboy she could change in the disabled loo. Also, going to visit the school counsellor whenever she felt ‘dysphoric’ was an efficient way to skip her least favourite classes/be elsewhere when homework needed to be completed

#4 Sensory Stimulation
The function of some behaviours do not rely on anything external to the person and instead are internally pleasing in some way – they are “self-stimulating” (O’Neill, Horner, Albin, Sprague, Storey, & Newton, 1997). They function only to give the person some form of internal sensation that is pleasing or to remove an internal sensation that is displeasing (e.g. pain).

Big saggy hoodies and an ever-present woolly hat obviously gave her some kind of comfort (as well as avoidance).

I did 6 months of multi systemic therapy with my eldest (who was wild around 14/15) and with that, the aim is to teach you to become your child’s therapist (so that when the service inevitably withdraws you aren’t straight back to where you started). Lots of what I learned then has been just as useful when dealing with my DsD’s gender distress. Equally, my youngest has regular pulses of psychological support (3 sessions and a break) to deal with her experience of serious illness and a lot of that is also transferable to my stepdaughter- it’s mostly exercises around self esteem and resilience building.

All this long-established, expert understanding of child behaviour and development seems to get chucked out of the window in favour of ‘affirmation’ by orgs like Stonewall, Mermaids, GIRES, Allsorts etc (and all the other smaller LGBT youth groups, many of whom were trained by the four I named anyway).

Gender distressed children are being let down left right and centre at the moment, either through a lack of curiosity in therapy or a lack of evidence in medical interventions - so whether you are a cheerleader of transkids or a skeptic like me, we should all be demanding better.

PopperUppleton · 02/07/2020 13:24

DuDuDuLang that's a fascinating post, thank you

CatandtheFiddle · 02/07/2020 14:06

Yes, absolutely fascinating, and the stuff about attention, tangibles, and avoidance ring bells with me re my young relative. Sadly, too late now. I just hope they won't be adding to the ranks of detransitioners in 5 or 10 years' time.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 02/07/2020 14:37

Just to clarify (although I do hope it’s already clear) ‘attention seeking’ is not used by child psychologists as a negative term, just a neutral observation.

It’s perfectly understandable that 13 year old child in my DsD’s situation would exhibit attention seeking behaviours - kids need (and deserve) attention, and sometimes family life gets messy and attentions are directed elsewhere.

I’ve heard several stories of kids with what is (controversially) described as rapid onset gender dysphoria having a seriously ill or disabled sibling or a seriously ill/recently recovered parent, or a recent bereavement.
This is an emerging pattern, described by a number of international professionals who have workEd with ROGD children. As we know, actual research in this area is being blocked and/or ‘discredited’ (discredited by rumour, not facts!)

Children who are engaged in functional behaviours are doing it largely subconsciously - sometimes they might repeat something purposefully that originated by accident (see using a repeat excuse to leave a stressful classroom as an obvious example) but they aren’t generally thinking ‘if I do this, I will get this’.

With the cross sex identity stuff they simply stumble across a ready-made phenomenon that ticks a lot of desired results boxes - they feel lonely/excluded/not like other girls/hate their bodies/hate the shitty gendered expectations that society pushes onto girls from secondary age onwards and then they come across a YouTuber or a tumblr blog (or a classroom session on ‘gender identity’) that seems to make sense of those feelings. The pleasing results from the functional behaviours reinforces the the initial false premise (that you are really the opposite sex).

I think (and I am NOT a professional) that the way to pick it all apart is backwards - what is the desired outcome?
And why is that outcome satisfying?

So what is the root problem that the functional behaviour is resolving?

And how does it all fit with what every single one of us already knows about puberty and peer groups?

(And then we have to not take it too personally if some of the answers point in our own direction - rejecting one’s own mother, no matter how fantastic she is, is a hugely common part of teenage girlhood, this is just a novel, late 2010s/early 2020 way of doing the same!)

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 03/07/2020 07:34

An article on Mermaids published by Spiked today (by Jo Bartosch):

www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/03/mermaids-leading-children-up-the-trans-path/

Motherofajuggernaut · 03/07/2020 11:06

Yesterday she had to go to school for an hour and when she got back she came up into the bedroom where I was sorting washing and chatted at me ten to the dozen. My cheerful chatty DD seems to be back for the minute at least.

A friend's cats are having babies so were getting a new kitten, and they were born Tuesday, and we saw the first photos yesterday. Will home it in time for going back to school and her 13th birthday. Hopefully it will help ground her and bring her out of herself a bit. She's cat mad.
Then she played a board game with DH and I in the evening.

I had a phone appointment with our gp who has been amazing. We saw the same GP for Dds anxiety in November. (Incidentally Dr also mother of a child in the same school and same year. She calling DD next week to go through a few things, asked her to write down how she's been feeling and was very insightful and comforting about this whole thing. She very much supports the idea that this is anxiety based.

I will.take some time later today to catch up on the new information on this thread. Thank you for your support xx

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 03/07/2020 11:15

The new cat sounds like an excellent idea!

I’m glad her day in school went well and you have all the channels of communication open and a pathway set for dealing with anxiety.

You are doing a brilliant job so far.

With my stepdaughter, the boy-identity seems to have been an attempt at a retreat away from the things that were making her (understandably) anxious, two of which were growing up/leaving childhood & growing up noticeably female (and all the vulnerabilities that brings).

Dealing with the anxiety and the root causes of the anxiety with a professional will hopefully bring your daughter on a shorter, less scenic route to peace.

Motherofajuggernaut · 03/07/2020 12:29

Dudu
That post is amazing
Dad's cancer diagnosis two years ago
Starting secondary school at the same time
Cat call experience which was powerful enough to inspire the poem she performed on stage at local intentional women's Day event
She had a "boyfriend" for the first time last year, she was indentifying as female and he natal male, it went on for 7 months. He split up with her and immediately went out with her best friend. I know this hurt her a lot. Apparently though they never even kissed. So whatever constitutes boyfriend material in yr eight
Attraction and subsequent rejection of a girl, then a relationship with a girl in Norway, she met her on a Yung blud fan site, they facetimed every day. I got to know her a little too. As soon as Norway went back to school she dumped my DD.
During lockdown her youngest brother who is perhaps also high functioning ASD has been a nightmare. He has not been engaged at all with school work and I have spent a LOT of time with him homeschooling. I haven't spent much with her at all because she seemed to desire to do her work independently. Apart from maths with her Dad she never asked for help. So rightly or wrongly I pretty much have focused on her brother all lockdown
Also my best friend, who is as close to her as a relative, we work together and have seen each other at least once a week our entire adult lives has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. It's been incredibly upsetting.
The hoodies, the hats, all resonate. The attention/connection seeking speaks very loudly to me.
The fact that she's far more cheerful now than she has been as she has averted our gaze to her says it all.

Bless her soul. I wouldn't want to be young today.

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 03/07/2020 13:19

I’m so glad you think it helpful!

Adolescence is often shit, for both boys and girls, i think it can be tougher on girls because puberty tends to come to them first and the affects can be startlingly rapid, whereas boys get a little longer to be children and the changes to their bodies take a longer period to complete.

On top of that, the gendered expectations for girls really ramp up at secondary school, some girls hide within those expectations (all false eyelashes and these days, contouring a completely different face on top of your own) and some girls hide from those expectations, but both responses resonate out of the same sets of anxieties.

We all need to keep reassuring our girls that becoming an adult human female is inevitable, but there is room for lots of variation (and no one really expects you to be a proper, sorted, adulty-adult until about 30 odd anyway).

If you can get her someone professional to talk to re: her dad and your family friend’s diagnoses and her feelings and anxieties relating to those (someone who specialises in teenagers preferably) that would probably be really helpful (although don’t make her speak to anyone she doesn’t like! Just find another. If you still have contact details for your husband’s MacMillan nurse, they will likely be able to signpost you.

Mostly, just be there and be accessible - I suspect that the main reason lockdown has allowed my DsD to desist (early days, it’s not completely behind us yet) is because her incredibly hard-working dad was furloughed for two months.

She got bags more attention, they renewed their closeness. He sees the immense improvement in her wellbeing and is determined to continue making more time for her now he is back at work.

Lockdown must’ve worked the other way around in your household due to her brother taking more of your time than usual.

Can you find something for you to do together without your son? Can her dad do the same? Both siblings would probably benefit from some more 1-1 time with each parent (although I realise how difficult that can be to manage as my eldest has HFA too, it’s much easier to cope with now he’s 20 and on the other side of puberty, but we had some serious struggles in the younger years 😬).

Motherofajuggernaut · 03/07/2020 17:45

Is been a challenge. I am still running my business and my husband hasn't stopped working, so I have been grateful for devices babysitting them when I'm trying to run my business and sort the house etc. My DH is going to take a week off soon and they normally go camping once together in the summer, for the weekend. I think I will encourage this, she probably won't want to go next year when she's almost 14.

OP posts:
bishopgiggles · 04/07/2020 00:13

OP, the social media, group chats etc she is on - are these people she knows in real life or are they mainly people off the internet - instagram etc? I feel a bit like if her social media is taken up a lot with people self-defining as these groups (absolutely nothing wrong with it btw) that will always be forefront and sometimes she might need to just chat shit with her real friends? And the 'stranger' groups I feel will be more open to manipulation from within and from outside.

Motherofajuggernaut · 04/07/2020 15:49

A mixture of both, she has several real world friends in this group. Two from a nearby local school and one from a drama class. But they're fandoms on there too. I believe all of them local to the area though. The rest is instagram

OP posts:
Splattherat · 07/07/2020 22:10

OP I hope your DD is ok. I have no advice but have just seen tonight that my DD 15 has set up a password for Replika. I haven’t heard of Replika before and found this thread by accident when searching about it. She is a bit withdrawn bit of a loner and she has become more and more quiet and withdrawn during lockdown. She has one female best friend who I think she may have a bit of crush on but unsure whether it is replicated. But I am still quite worried about her in general.

Nonicknamesleft · 02/05/2021 18:56

Thanks for the link to Lily Maynard's excellent article. I have just joined the club of parents with suddenly would-be trans daughters and Lily's experience is really encouraging.

Dd's school called me in the other day to inform me that she was henceforth going to be called by her preferred name and be referred to with male pronouns. They didn't seek my consent and went ahead with the change in the knowledge that she hadn't even told her dad that she's thinking this. Their plan is to continue to use her 'dead' ie actual name in correspondence, parents evenings, etc. Her keyworked phoned a couple of days ago, referring to her all the time by the male identity and me, being in earshot of the family, by she/her and her name. It's farcical.

She'd told me a few weeks ago and begged me not to tell dad, on the assurance that she would do herself. As far as she's concerned he is irredeemably transphobic; however, she threw the grenade today.

I must admit I've been a bit paralysed by fear of alienating her, but this article, and my husband's appalled but predictable reaction, has helped me realise that I have to put my big girl pants on and face this differently. Dd is a very clever autistic girl and I feel as though I've been walking on eggshells around her for a long time because so much about her makes me fearful. Anyway, this is incredibly helpful. I was already aware of Transgender Trend and the Bayswater Group but feel a bit more empowered now. Thanks so very much xxx

twelly · 02/05/2021 19:03

I am so sorry that you are having such a tough time - I totally agree social media is totally manipulative, vulnerable children and teenagers are just so confused and as a parent you get cast as archaic and phobic if you offer any measures response. I think the important thing is not to get into an argument and sort of ignore and acknowledge at the same time as it is such a fad at the moment

persistentwoman · 02/05/2021 19:12

Nonicknamesleft
Glad that you've found some useful support. And a quick reminder (although I am sure you already know this). Schools do not have the power to transition children in secret from their parents. Only the courts can remove parental rights
The reason schools are doing this is because certain adult groups are determined to undermining the safeguarding of children by removing them from the influence of their parents. But - as we see repeatedly - adults who understand safeguarding are too scared to stand up and challenge this. It's outrageous - especially as all available data proves that children removed from their families (often for good reasons) do terribly in terms of all measures - academic, life chances, mentally etc.

24GinDrinkingOnceTheKidsInBed · 02/05/2021 19:16

This sounds like my sister. Not sure about your DD but I can almost see through my DSis and it’s because she wants to be ‘quirky’ and in order to not fit everyone bill she’s going through a stage of ‘I’m pansexual, now I fancy the oven, I think I’m a boy, I’m definitely bi, now I’m lesbian, actually I’m bi’ it’s really exhausting listening to her call everyone mainstream and basic because they don’t like little moons and Japanese gamers.

God help me.

MrsChalfont · 02/05/2021 19:42

I experienced gender dysphoria in my teens though I knew no term like that. I felt inadequate and a failure and have carried a sense of this through a few decades now, advancing and receding in my mind. It's natural and inevitable to experience discomfort growing up in such an unhealthy society that places blackly comic expectations on people based on their sex.

Things have gone backwards, and not by accident. As a species we've had some kind of vertigo in relation to potential freedom, which seems particularly visible in England and maybe even especially visible in the last year - boorish men in pubs, in their 30s and their 60s bounding around, emboldened by the appalling developments of the last few years. Social media and reality television feeding into what might in a briefly helathier freer time have been brief vanities.

You should not have to behave any certain way based on your sex or sexuality and this should be fundamental to anyone's upbringing.

I've always had creative outlets and perhaps was lucky that I gave up so soon on wanting to be accepted - it was so far away from likely that I withdrew into music and books and forms of education that validated me.

There'll come a time when the current hysteria around these issues has died down, I think and I hope.

It makes no sense to me that trans ideology is necessarily binary - that aperson says they are not that but this rather than seeing that a construct has been forced on them that denies their multivalent nature- but that ideology is promoted simultaneously with the idea of being non-binary. There is something more rational about stating one is gender non-binary if it's knowingly some kind of quasi-political statement, of a refusal of false kinds of nurturing. Yet some say they are tansgender and non-binary?

So much of male suicide is related to perceived failure, but somehow even the thought of a mind heading in the direction of suicide rather than making mistakes about conceptions of gender, shows someone reaching to be authentic. Authenticity regardless of whether you're gay or straight, born male or female, seems to be what is promoted and valued least. Authentic men and women are the least visible people. Why wouldn't boys and girls, themselves reaching for authenticity, feel lost and be amenable to ideas of the long term lost.

Branleuse · 02/05/2021 19:48

Id be clear to her that its not about transphobia, but about realism. Dysphoria doesnt necessarily mean trans and its completely normal and common part of adolescence for loads of people (obviously not everyone) and that youre ok with her exploring her identity, but youre concerned if shes going to immediately label it trans, and you want her to slow down

rogdmum · 02/05/2021 20:14

Nonicknamesleft If your daughter is under 16, the school is leaving themselves wide open to legal action if they affirm her without your permission. Despite what the lobby groups claim, it is unlawful for them to do so.

alexk3 · 02/05/2021 21:57

You might as well ask the GP for a referral to the Tavistock, if they are persistent with it they'll be years on the waiting list so no harm being on it now

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