12 yr old DD. Gender Dysphoria, sudden announcement

[Motherofajuggernaut]

Hi
Title says it all really
Dd has just announced she is gender Dysphoric
We're all at sea

Not even sure where to begin.
Our reluctance to accept this carte blanche has been accusing of being transphobic. We're not but we are asking for time and open mindedness from ourselves and her.
It's clear there's been a lot of external social influence. Especially since lockdown, she's struggled to engage with school in any meaningful way and has been highly anxious.
She decided to break the news on the day of a family funeral where due to social distancing and travel etc only my husband attended when we would normally have all been there. Maximum impact
She came out in December as a lesbian we didn't skip a beat, sexuall preference is a non issue for us.
But now this...

We simply don't know where to begin

@makemyweek

I had this situation with my dd at exactly the same age. Same thing, said she was a lesbian at 11, then a teary announcement that she was transgender. I was shocked. We are very close and it was a complete bolt from the blue. It fit with all the 'rapid onset gender dysmorphia' symptoms. She had been spending a lot of time online looking at gender transformation stories and was going through an incredibly hormonal time. She wanted me to buy a binder for her. My dh and I discussed it with her in depth and told her we empathised with how she was feeling but that we wanted her to sit with her feelings, talking with us and being open for six months. She was fairy reasonable and agreed however whenever we bought clothes, she wanted to buy from the male sections. That was fine by me. As the weeks passed, I checked in with her often and we tried to keep talking. Her feelings changed and she decided she wasn't transgender. It took about 8 months. She is also now, at 14 not sure she is a lesbian but she can work that out as she begins making her way in the world of relationships and it isn't causing her angst.

I hope it's helpful to hear my experiences. We had to be so careful with our words to try to ensure she felt understood and not alienated but we were firm in making her wait and think before making any big moves to changing her appearance drastically. I wish you and her well. It's such a difficult time for parents and children navigating this situation.

This....all of this...

Thank you

Well I hope this helps, it's from my own experience years ago. I know the situation has changed with so much easy access to information and impact of social media, but it might give an insight into her head

12 is not very early to think this way. I think for me it started around age 9 when I moved up to middle school which was much more sexist. Girls and boys separated for everything, although many of my best friends had been Male before then. Obsession with boobs and looks in the girls changing rooms. Bullying even from teachers because girls should not be good at stuff, especially maths

So I wanted to be a boy, I was just as good as them. I was always happy to play Zukko if you are of that generation.

As time goes on , In my dreams I was always a boy. Actually, often still am. All the stories I read were sci fi,with no female characters back then either. I just wasn’t into things like make up and the music and tv that other girls liked.

And as for hormones, periods and boobs. Totally horrific. Totally unwanted. Boys get to keep their bodies, I had a razor blade ( used for models) and was very tempted to put it to other use - ideas that I formed without any input from social media

What happened next? My dad let me do lots of stuff that other girls wouldn’t touch , DIY and car maintenance, he brought computers home for me to play with. He always told me that other people were just stupid or scared or jealous if we encountered sexism. He just constantly reinforced the message that I should do what I wanted, and that there would always be friends and family who loved me that way. He turned up at school and forced them to add pure maths to their a level options as I would need it for my future. This school was not the high school associated with my middle school, my parents changed that too for me.

I told this very recently on here, but one memorable day we were servicing the car. And he couldn’t get to the oil filter, but it turned out my smaller girls hands would fit just fine, showing that female biology isn’t always a disadvantage . I was so chuffed.

It took till early 20’s for me to become reconciled to being female. Because no matter what I did, that’s what the world saw. I couldn’t change me to fit in, there was nothing wrong with me , and I was just going to bloody well show them that.

Much older now, and I think I have achieved that. Smug. And unlike those who may chose to transition today, i have my health, which means a lot as you reach the menopausal age. I have achieved without changing me at all, physical or mental.

I have become aware today of a Reddit group called Trans Adoption. It is for young people who consider themselves Transgender and are not supported by parents. The idea is that they are "adopted" for online support by an adult. This used to happen on the Mermaids young people's group. I don't know if it still does.

You can find anecdotal accounts of people whose child has come out the other side of this and accepted themselves as gay instead. Can you maybe get her info on female role models who are non stereotypical, pictures, bios, achievements? Get her to question what it is about her that she feels cannot be a female trait, find females who have that trait. That's what I would do if I were in that situation myself. Talk logically, find as much scientific material as you can.

Did your DD actually use the phrase gender dysphoric?! You have to wonder what she's been reading or watching or listening to in order to use that vocabulary.

I might have asked her how she knows and what it feels like, and just listen. She's very young yet, and just needs to know she's unconditionally lived and can talk to you about anything and be sure you'll listen.

Is she actually asking you to do anything about it at the moment?

The mistake some parents make is getting over-involved at this point and being such enthusiastic advocates for their child that it becomes impossible for the child to back out if they change their mind.

I'd say do your reading, but employ a loving, watchful, patient, waiting approach. Certainly don't be bounced or rushed into anything, or let her be.

We live in interesting times!

I know she's old enough for puberty and all to be upsetting her, but there are parents out there who took seriously stuff their child said aged three and began treating them differently. I have worked with children a lot and will never forget the day I was reading and chatting with some 6 year olds and, unheard by each other (in different groups at different times) one confided that he was really a tiger and another that she wasn't actually a girl but a fairy.

Now what would a supportive parent be expected to do in those cases to enable their child's inner reality?

Check out Pique Resilience Project - four young detransitioned women who talk about their experiences

www.piqueresproject.com/

We went through her phone last night, made her bring it downstairs at nine put it on the charging point and it was gone again by 6am this morning so she sneaked down in the night to get it.

Saw her main LGBTQ group chat, she's lied to them...told them she had a binder arrived in the post and showed a picture of some random sports bra, she told them her father accidently called her son and talking how good it felt, it didn't happen.
She's decided I'm a TERF and transphobic because I asked her how she knows what boys feel like.

Found screenshots of sexy talk between her and a trans boy, apparently she's met him on a LBGQTI friendship group on Instagram. It's not too bad...but far more suggestive than I'd like my twelve year old involved in, the modern equivalent of getting felt up behind the youth club I guess- 'normal' but not desirable.

She says she has facetimed this transboy and they are definitely a 13 ye old. I'd like to see that for myself.

I confronted her about these messages and she said she didn't want me going through her phone and it was her safe space, the only place she isn't misgendered. I have not agreed that this is the case. Her phone is the least safe space and while she's underage we have a duty of care to look out for her. She was furious and upset.

She left the house angry with me this morning. She was supposed to be meeting a friend at 11 she went out at 8.30...(which is the earliest she's got up in months) she has taken all her pocket money from her tin (£15 ) but she didn't strop out, we had a conversation and she said she will be back at 3. I guess letting her cool off today and see what happens next.
She's already escalating. We had a chat on Friday night and asked her to wait until we were at least back to school etc (buying time for watchful waiting) before we adopted pronouns or used her chosen name. She agreed, we told her that in principle we were behind her choices but she needs to be older and just give it time. Global pandemic is not the time to making any big life changes.
Yesterday she sent me a video about how to use pronouns..

Where will she be all day? She's upset and planning to be out of the house for 7 hours.

OP you must be so worried 😟 I would expect that sort of behavior at 16, not 12.

Slightly missing the point but I wouldn't be happy about my 12 year old being on message forums at all (or being felt up at the back of a youth club for that matter).

She's 12!

I actually agree with Sapphos - shock! - that she shouldn’t be on chat boards, although that’s not missing the point, that’s the whole point. Confiscate her phone or significantly restrict it with access to particular websites. If it’s an iPhone it can be done through Screen Time. No way would I tolerate my 12 year old DD being on chat boards at all regardless of any gender issue, you’ve no idea who she’s talking to.

Avoid mermaids!!!

I'd work on her self esteem around being a lesbian. Make sure she knows you support, her sexuality and that it is a non issue, she doesn't have to change her body.

Avoid Mermaids

Try to steer her away from social media for a bit.

Didn’t she come out as lesbian first?

So if she’s really a ‘boy’ she’s a straight boy?

Yet her (female) friend is also a ‘boy’? Because that makes her transphobic by in-group standards (she can’t really see this transboy as a boy).

I think this is indicative of what’s going on in a wider, cultural way. Our girls want to be transboys, they don’t actually want to be like natal boys and they don’t truly believe they have boy boy brains.

It’s a separate subcultural-type phenomenon.

Totally agree with everyone else re: restricting phone access/cutting down on online time/setting up her phone so it can only do stuff you have specifically agreed to do.

There are loads of settings to help with this, bit of a slog to learn them but they really do make everything else easier to manage.

Good friends have been going through similar but with an older DD. They are very comfortable with different sexualities as one of the older siblings is a lesbian.

However the DD who is struggling with gender has also only recently been diagnosed with autism. The parents havent made any connection but from my reading on here and elsewhere is that there is a large overlap. Do you think your DD has undiagnosed needs?

I have applied to be part of Mermaids parent support group

Oh please don't! They promote young people contacting them without parents' knowledge, and they promote drugs which are not reversible and can be hugely harmful. Just look at what testosterone did to East German swimmers in the 1980s - and they were being given far smaller doses of testosterone than are recommended for FemaletoMale (FtM) transition.

I'd be investigating bullying at school about her being a lesbian. The depth of lesbophobia and misogyny in our society is just awful.

Do you think I should remove her phone totally? I want to but I feel this will alienate and anger her and push it deeper.
I really need her to see the risks she's taking with this behaviour. She is mostly a sensible girl , she has a mature head on her shoulders sometimes.
But she's 12.
I really want to take her to the go for counselling because there's so much to unpick but I'm terrified of playing into the affirmation trans route

DU DU

Her friend is a natal boy who identifies as gender fluid.

I am very tempted to remove all social media access. This would cut her off from most of it. She has WhatsApp, til tok and Instagram. We have removed tiktok, it seems to be WhatsApp that the group chats are on and Instagram she has more than one account

Crikey! I had no idea that it was an actual boy!

Don’t take it away completely. I would lock It down so she can only speak to pre approved people that she knows in real life. No websites. You need to add a lock code so that only you can add new contacts etc.

There are email apps that will send a parent a copy of every incoming and outgoing message too.

Who would have thought it eh NotBadConsidering , we do agree on something.

I'm still shocked that a child, presumably still in year 7, has come out as a lesbian, moved on to being trans, has access to LGBTQ message forums and is already talking about binders. She's barely old enough for a bra.

What other age appropriate interests does she have Op? Is she sporty? Musical? The cinemas will be opening soon. Sounds like she needs to spend some time just being 12.

You can be 12 and year 8...

But loads of secondary schools have in-person LGBT groups from 11 years onwards. It’s required for Stonewall ‘awards’: www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/2_setting_up_lgbt_groups_for_young_people.pdf

Youth groups like Proud Trust are aimed at 11-19 year olds and all their stuff is currently online due to virus risk.

Online forums are aimed at similar ages - Mermaids being a prime example, they tell kids to set up an email their parents can’t access. It’s a massive breach of safeguarding frameworks, but it doesn’t seem to adversely affect them. They get more corporate dosh than ever at the moment.

This stuff is completely mainstream from 11 onwards, Sapphos!

The only way to avoid it right now is via tight tech controls.

A young person in my extended family succumbed to a sort of low level diagnosed depression at puberty - I suspect menstruation, weight gain re breasts & hips (mother with a history of various EDs) triggered unease & depression. Then at 15 started talking about gender dysphoria, then started on a medicalised transition at just shy of 17. I despair, I really do.

The one thing I keep wondering about is that at 15 (let alone 12) most young women don't know that much about sex, their sexual feelings, or even their sexuality.

And my young relative is now probably condemned to a relatively celibate life. I suspect they are really a lesbian, but such is the internalised lesbophobia in that country (a very conservative traditional country) that transing is more palatable.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong I can't see anything wrong with that Stonewall youth group link you shared? They're hardly discussing binders like the OP's DD and an open F2F group in school seems much safer than a closed online group.

I was still reading Judy Blume when I was 12 but if there was a group like this at my school it would have been a positive thing.

Why was the group needed?
• In both schools homophobic language was too commonly used and was less commonly challenged than sexist or racist language
• Students who identified as LGBT had no ‘safe’ place in school to discuss issues, be accepted or meet others
• SLT wanted to promote inclusion and acceptance across the school
• The groups were also intended to support students in developing their advocacy, leadership and presentation skills

I'm so sorry you are going through all this and yes sappho I'm afraid this has gone viral among young teenage girls. This is exactly what we have all been banging on about. I'm glad, sappho that you are not happy about this.

And you are quite right. OP's DD needs to spend some time being 12 - even if that means just sitting with intense feelings of discomfort at the idea and fact of puberty. You could argue that the definition of adolescence is a period of alienation from one's own body - after all you are going to lose the only body you have ever known and have it replaced with one that's very foreign to you and not fit for purpose when you are only 12. No 12 year old needs breasts or periods - but that is what nature does. And we have to help our girls adjust to them and live with the weirdness and discomfort and alienation until their minds catch up with their bodies.

We also need to help girls deal with the weirdness from other people (men) who respond to those new bodies very differently and very inappropriately. Turning 12 is the on-switch for all dodgy men everywhere - all girls are familiar with the new and unwanted attention and abuse they get from men. What could be more natural than to reject the body that attracts this attention? And yet what could be more damaging in the long run.

And OP I would be less worried about putting this to your DD in terms of "risk" and more putting the issues to her in terms of her natural development towards teenage years and then adulthood. What she is going through is entirely natural for an adolescent girl.

Just as she no longer reads baby and toddler books or watches CBEEBIES, she is now going through another change phase. Nature is doing this and nature doesn't give her the opportunity to be a boy. It only allows her to be a girl but she can be any sort of girl she likes. No girl enjoys adolescence but almost all girls grow up to be women who are pretty comfortable in their own skin - even if it takes decades.

I feel for you OP. This ideology is so very damaging . But I know there are lots of other mums on here who have helped their daughters through and are now out the other side - happily gender non conforming girls and young women.

I was pointing out that the Proud Trust start from age 11, Sapphos, so your surprise at OPs daughter being 12 is strange, especially as you initially recommended Allsorts, who start from age FIVE.

I'm still shocked that a child, presumably still in year 7, has come out as a lesbian, moved on to being trans, has access to LGBTQ message forums and is already talking about binders. She's barely old enough for a bra.

What other age appropriate interests does she have Op? Is she sporty? Musical? The cinemas will be opening soon. Sounds like she needs to spend some time just being 12.