Keir Starmer Sky News

[AppleJane]

Keir Starmer refused to confirm Lloyd Russell-Moyle will be sacked.

Kit
No problem. It's still shocking reading about the subterfuge which enabled this.

it really! this has been years in the planning - they have been playing a very long game.....

Stuff like this is used deliberately to obscure the issue. I’m not bothered about any of that either

Neither am I Kit19.

That doesn’t mean I want to share changing rooms, women’s sports or refuges with make bodied ppl
Yup. Classical strawman argument. And I'm getting bored with how base these claims are. There's not even any challenge in responding to them.

Funny how they never ask the public difficult questions innit?- it’s only ever the fluffy “would you like to be kind?” type questions

That's because we've already had the difficult questions asked in various other surveys and unfortunately the public doesn't respond in the right way.

And it's the same in many of those countries, too. Once you ask the pertinent questions, once you explain the ramifications of enshrining gender identity in law to any sex-based protections provided to women and girls, the usual reaction is a horrified WTF.

Why so much subterfuge?

I agree with littlbrowndog and think people need to stop believing Starmer is playing some clever long game

Yes, he's just a continuity leader.......who main goal is to try and recover some his party's reputation, and unite the party. The Labour party machine is too deep in to this stuff now.....it is going to take over a decade or more to peel it all back and reveal what is underneath.

@Kit19

Stuff like this is used deliberately to obscure the issue. I’m not bothered about any of that either

That doesn’t mean I want to share changing rooms, women’s sports or refuges with make bodied ppl

Funny how they never ask the public difficult questions innit?- it’s only ever the fluffy “would you like to be kind?” type questions

Exactly.

Funny to see Owen Jones throwing his rattle out of his pram about Starmer not standing up sufficiently forcefully for trans rights.
He's also quoting slightly suspect suicide stats and saying recorded hate crimes against trans people have trebled in 5 years. As I suspect the trans community has grown hugely since it became fashionable in the last few yrs, and since hate crimes at this point probably mean "someone misgendered me" or "I saw a 'women don't have penises' sticker", I'm not sure that's quite the gotcha he thinks it is.

He's also quoting slightly suspect suicide stats and saying recorded hate crimes against trans people have trebled in 5 years.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with women's need for sex based rights, services and protections.

This is a major concern for a very very tiny fraction of the population. I've hardly seen it discussed anywhere outside MN. I think people need to live and let live.

I've hardly seen it discussed

Vivienne

Why do you think Labour was decimated in the last election? Why do you think consituencies which had voted Labour for a century dropped them? Any thoughts?

I've hardly seen it discussed anywhere outside MN.

That's because it's been done by stealth, until recently there was little general awareness. Once people understand the trans umbrella has been extended to include any man who states he feels like a women, then it's a concern for more and more people.

Stonewall lobbying to reduce women's rights should concern us all, No unelected organisation should have that level of influence.

Disappointed but not surprised by KS's performance. There is a potential silver lining as he has shown the Tories that he is vulnerable on this topic & they will use this as leverage as they know that majority of uk public do not support the extreme ideology being pushed by various organisations.

Hence I think the chances of sex-based exemptions being reinforced and GRA Reform being formally kicked into touch have just improved massively.

@Collidascope

Funny to see Owen Jones throwing his rattle out of his pram about Starmer not standing up sufficiently forcefully for trans rights. He's also quoting slightly suspect suicide stats and saying recorded hate crimes against trans people have trebled in 5 years. As I suspect the trans community has grown hugely since it became fashionable in the last few yrs, and since hate crimes at this point probably mean "someone misgendered me" or "I saw a 'women don't have penises' sticker", I'm not sure that's quite the gotcha he thinks it is.

It's plain weird that OJ is so vocal on this, given that 3 gay men were murdered last week.

I've hardly seen it discussed anywhere outside MN. I think people need to live and let live.

Really? I've seen it being discussed a huge amount in the real world these days, thanks to the media publicity about it and the light shine on it from many high profile figures.

It's plain weird that OJ is so vocal on this, given that 3 gay men were murdered last week.

Not that you would know that from anyone pretending to support gay rights.

Shameful.

@Collidascope

Funny to see Owen Jones throwing his rattle out of his pram about Starmer not standing up sufficiently forcefully for trans rights. He's also quoting slightly suspect suicide stats and saying recorded hate crimes against trans people have trebled in 5 years. As I suspect the trans community has grown hugely since it became fashionable in the last few yrs, and since hate crimes at this point probably mean "someone misgendered me" or "I saw a 'women don't have penises' sticker", I'm not sure that's quite the gotcha he thinks it is.

It's so frustrating. I can't stand this form of manipulation, where the answer to all questions on anything at all is 'but trans people are so oppressed. Don't be so meeeeean'

'I'm a bit worried about my daughter having her first smear test and having to be seen by a self ID trans woman because she's too nervous and vulnerable to object (and would be a transphobe too)'

'But trans people are so oppressed. Stop being soooo meeeean'

Not reassuring for my DD, LOJ. Try again.

I watched his interview on GMB this morning. He was like a worm wriggling on a hook. So disappointed in him. What a wet blanket.

KS's interview, not OJ.

For anyone who says it isn't discussed much...

I think it has been recently, but nevertheless, this is not an issue that effects men. So that is most newspaper editors, television producers...etc.

There was something on GMB a few weeks ago and I got into a spat with a man on Twitter.

It was pure male behaviour.

'Oh yawn' (he posted) 'who is even interested in this shit?'

'Lots of women, actually.'

'Why, when it isn't even about women. It's about trans people.'

'I think that maybe you don't understand the issue then.'

'Well. I see you just want an argument.'

'Not really. You asked who was interested and I answered.'

'I'll leave you to it with your argumentative, feminist ranting.'

'Ok. Bye.'

That is, sadly, what a lot of men think of this issue - it is a side issue for minorities and women don't matter.

I think far more people are talking about this. The JK abuse got a lot of mainstream attention. The Times keeps plugging away with stories and they allow comments which is great so further debate is had in MSM. There’s a commenter who goes under the name Jo March and she says some great stuff in the comments under the articles.

I remember a comment recently from a man who said he was elderly and had no idea of the appalling implications of trans rights for women. He said he had a daughter and granddaughter and was going to discuss it with them because he was worried for them. I’ve seen a lot of people’s eyes being opened recently including in discussions of sport etc.

*This is a major concern for a very very tiny fraction of the population. I've hardly seen it discussed anywhere outside MN. I think people need to live and let live8

The reason for that is that there has been no real public debate, and consequently no real awareness amongst the general public of the issues and implications. MN has been the only on-line place where this has been possible. The debate and the discussion and the full facts need to be brought fully into the mainstream.

When even government ministers and MPs have not got a clue, it tells us that something very strange has gone on. Agendas have been pushed in under the radar. This has been the main approach of TRA lobbies. They know public awareness is the kiss of death.

They lost because of Jeremy Corbyn. And the take over of the party by the hard left. And also the anti Semitism.

*They lost because of Jeremy Corbyn. And the take over of the party by the hard left. And also the anti Semitism8

They also lost because the take-over of Identity style politics, founded on university campuses in America, and now in Britain. It has got nothing to do with traditional Labour values or voters.

When I have kids I'll be sure to tell them that it's acceptable in exams to respond to any question they don't like or have not prepared for with "It's the wrong question" and still expect to get a decent grade. FFS.