Keir Starmer Sky News

[AppleJane]

Keir Starmer refused to confirm Lloyd Russell-Moyle will be sacked.

Ugh sorry, that first paragraph above should have been bolded as a quote. it's very confusing without that.

No trouble LilianBland, my fault for wording my post so badly.

CharlieParley you make an interesting point about women from the communities worst affected by transactivism also being vocal supporters of it. I still think that a lot of the more privaledged women who support TWAW are doing so because they are only considering it from the POV of how it might affect them. But clearly that isn't the case for disadvantaged women supporting TWAW. I have quite a few thoughts around why disadvantaged communities may be drawn to this, even at the expense of their own rights and protections, and also on the other posters question about what social class has to do with any of this, but I think I might start a separate thread about it later as I've derailed this one enough.

@LillianBland

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings My sincere apologies. I completely misunderstood what you were getting at. I couldn’t understand the concern for vulnerable women, followed by the ‘white middle class women’ comments. I understand now, what you were getting at.

ByGrab

I also apologise because I misinterpreted your post. Sorry.

Oh I agree with you on that Kantastic, I wasn't suggesting that Corbyn was seen as a great strategist
But there were hopes that his refusal to properly engage with the debate could somehow be a good sign and that something was being done behind the scenes.
Starmer might be a great strategist, but it doesn't mean that he understands - or cares - how these issues are impacting women.

@OliveKitteridgeAgain

It's frustrating that the real issue WRT the Odious Beardy, is not that he does not agree with JKR about trans issues, but that he said a woman talking about her experiences with male violence was doing so in bad faith. Take the trans out of it. He is telling women who are brave enough to speak about their experiences, in order to bring about a dialogue or simply just to explain their view of society, to STFU because he doesn't like it. That does not need to be pussy-footed around in order to appease factions of the Labour Party who are pro-TWAW. It stands alone as a reason why Moyles in not fit for public office.

Olive

I agree. And it's a recurrent theme. Dismissing a woman's account of her personal experience is par for the course if she is challenging the orthodoxy of the SJ movement. It seems to be a tactic.

We got de-platformed, attacked and picketed, and barred from a seat at the table to discuss legislation that could significantly harm us

Olive

I still find it difficult to understand how this has happened. It's quite incredible.

I'd never heard of Lloyd Russell-Moyle before.

And if KS sacked him you'd never hear of him again.

I'd never heard of Lloyd Russell-Moyle before.

Keir Starmer certainly knows who he is. This is the second time in three months that he has had to explain why he isn't being sacked.

We got de-platformed, attacked and picketed, and barred from a seat at the table to discuss legislation that could significantly harm us

I still find it difficult to understand how this has happened.

It happened because attitudes haven't changed. Women's equality and human rights aren't real. They are loaned to us on sufferance, and can be taken away again as soon as we aren't looking.

He's a nasty piece of work.

It happened because attitudes haven't changed. Women's equality and human rights aren't real. They are loaned to us on sufferance, and can be taken away again as soon as we aren't looking.

YY. This has never been more clear.

I wonder if he would have sacked LRM if he hadn’t already sacked RLB. I’m not sure he would have. I am really disappointed in him. I just don’t know how we’ve got to a point where the leader of a political party can’t come out and say of course trans women aren’t women. I mean it’s just absurd. It really is the emperor’s new clothes. Bonkers but frightening bonkers.

I have no idea who labour represent now, apparently not the working class or women.

This is the second time in three months that he has had to explain why he isn't being sacked

Yes, wasn't the last time related to the leaking of an unredacted report which contained confidential information about reports of antisemitism?
mobile.twitter.com/liberalbrighton/status/1249765963714740224

Starmer had a chance for a talk . Since April

I just don’t know how we’ve got to a point where the leader of a political party can’t come out and say of course trans women aren’t women. I mean it’s just absurd. It really is the emperor’s new clothes

It genuinely frightens me that politicians are willing to go along with this. What does it say about their ability to think and tackle other issues that are obscured by dogmatic cliches?

Starmer might be a great strategist, but it doesn't mean that he understands - or cares - how these issues are impacting women.

That's fair! I am influenced by my (admittedly fairly fuzzy) understanding of his tenure as DPP. I understand he improved the rate of rape prosecutions while there - to me that indicates someone who cares about women, has a good understanding of how systemic misogyny works, and is effective in tackling it. I know they have backslid horribly on prosecuting rapes since he left, so he didn't manage to change the culture there or anything but even effecting a temporary improvement on such an important issue in a system that fucked up is impressive.

His position on women isn't quite as pronounced. Labour have a problem with winning over male voters: women are already much more likely to support Labour. He has more room to move here.

You know, people imagine this would potentially be in tension with paying more attention to women's issues, but I don't think that's particularly the case. I think a lot of the same things would appeal to men and women around this.

Is anyone else sick of the 'Ah. Yes. This is a complex situation and a debate needs to be had' response?

Yes. We need a debate. Let's televise it like a leadership debate.

Maximum sunlight. Thrash it all out, have a public vote and draw the line once and for all.

When? Just let me know when you want to have this 'important debate that needs to be had' and I'll stick it on the calendar. I think we have our arguments ready.

I just don’t know how we’ve got to a point where the leader of a political party can’t come out and say of course trans women aren’t women. I mean it’s just absurd. It really is the emperor’s new clothes It makes no sense. He's always described as a 'forensic' lawyer who is on top of detail and facts. Yet this basic biological fact is ignored. I wonder what he really thinks when he's sitting at home with a cup of tea or whatever.

It happened because attitudes haven't changed. Women's equality and human rights aren't real. They are loaned to us on sufferance, and can be taken away again as soon as we aren't looking

Much of the regulatory and institutional capture which has allowed this to happen has been deliberately hidden from public view. That's because it would not receive public support. This is not a grassroots movement, like women's suffrage. This is something which is being implemented because influential people in influential roles dictate policy. It is profoundly undemocratic. And the shock troops of the SJ movement are ready to unload vitriol if anyone questions any of it. Part of the reason this is happening is because there are very few politicians prepared to stand up for freedom of speech and thought and defend the principles of classic liberalism. Unfortunately, this seems to be getting worse. Not better.

Ereshkigalangcleg Mon 29-Jun-20 13:12:39
I'd never heard of Lloyd Russell-Moyle before.

And if KS sacked him you'd never hear of him again.
..
I live in hope but will probably hear his name all over the place from now on.

I hadn't heard of Dominic Cummings before he took his family up North and after that he was never off the news.

YY Bovary

does anyone have a link to the Denton report which basically outlined exactly how they did it

keeping it very low key was one of the fundamentals

Kit

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

Stuff like this is used deliberately to obscure the issue. I’m not bothered about any of that either

That doesn’t mean I want to share changing rooms, women’s sports or refuges with make bodied ppl

Funny how they never ask the public difficult questions innit?- it’s only ever the fluffy “would you like to be kind?” type questions

Thanks bovary 😊