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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The effect of lockdown on transitioning teen girls

183 replies

Thegenderbreadperson · 28/06/2020 23:02

I mentioned this on another thread, but as a worker in a high school we have found out during weekly phone calls home that since lockdown that most of our FtM students have de transitioned, perhaps as there is no longer the group peer pressure or affirmation from teachers? I was interested to see if there are any more examples - the other thread was started about Dr Haddock, and I felt this was worthy of its own thread.

In our school there were nine girls out of a approx 160 student year 9 cohort who identified as boys. Seven have now de transitioned since lockdown and one is considering it. Out of those nine I would have said three of them weren’t as committed as the others and had said they were “thinking about being non binary”, but were keen to remain part of that friendship group. It really is infectious.

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 30/06/2020 11:47

Why do they have to be pushed down the trans route?

Because the mostly white, heterosexual, adult males pushing this agenda would've got nowhere, but by transing kids they get to tug at heartstrings. But what about the children...........

Same reason why Stonewall wont put money into mental health or allow research into ROGD in young girls. Because transing young lesbians validates the AGP's and makes stonewall £££££

SarahTancredi · 30/06/2020 11:54

whats

You said what I've been deleted previously fir saying so thank you. That part is so obvious and adults can follow thr money and the benefits for others in nearly every other situation like buying a car or life insurance or mortgages etc.

Yet they dont see this.

Why?

That part I wonder if ( god knows I'm certainly sick of having to say it in order to be listened to without anyone taking offence ) the very fact we have to start every sentence with "it's not all men but...." and men wont acknowledge they are the class involved with whatever because they get defensive then go off on one about women doing it too etc "

So ultimately you have both men and women who in the bid to not acknowledge the reality either because they want to prove it's not all men or going down the victim blaming route becuase the worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad etc , completely deny what's in front of them because the truth is offensive.

We cant change that sadly but we can try and teach our kids some tools to deal with less pleasant aspects of life and maybe just maybe try and teach them to question and debate instead again and that hurt feelings are not an argument etc

HPFA · 30/06/2020 12:06

Anyway no one much cares about youngsters identifying as non binary, I know you'll be disappointed at that but it's true, they only really care when they start taking drugs with unknown side effects and taking steps to permanently alter and make infertile, healthy young bodies.

This is right. If a teen wants to be non-binary and they're not interested in drugs or surgeries it seems helpful to leave them to it. They can make a decision later on whether it's permanent.

I do wonder now whether all girls is a better environment. My DD (15) wanted to go to an all-girls comp which I was fine with as its a great school but I wasn't specifically looking for single sex. But recently they had their first meet up and they ended up playing piggy-in-the-middle and football and stuff like that. One of her friends is very GNC in appearance (I don't know how she identifies) but DD just says she finds non-binary " a bit of a strange idea". I wonder if being removed from the pressure in the school day really helps them.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/06/2020 12:11

Non binary doesn’t make sense. In a (unlikely and hypothetical) medical situation would they just refuse to answer ‘male or female’? How do you decide which loo or changing room? If you have a female body a do you cover your top half at the swimming pool (if so, why)? It sounds like an awful lot of thinking abut yourself in every situation (sounds exhausting).

Reminds me of a trans man who forgot to mention the fact that they were pregnant in hospital and the baby was lost because the hospital took on face value their statement that they were male. For the love of the wee man - just why?

SarahTancredi · 30/06/2020 12:18

Yes serenity

Even without surgery or medical intervention non binary is still subscribing to fiction not fact.

In order for parents to keep their kids safe they need to know who and what they are and what bodies are and who has what body and what that means etc.

Facts are facts. Things have gone to far when parents and other adults will collude in a lie about someones body to preserve feelings.

At some point they are going to find out the truth so are you going to he the ones to tell them love them and support them or are you going to wait until something terrible happens and they have to deal with the trauma if what happened on top of their own delusions about their bodies on top of tthe fact that adults they trusted have lied to them for years.

That's not harmless. In that one split they loose everything and everyone they trusted . Where do you think that leaves them?

Whatsnewpussyhat · 30/06/2020 12:39

Anytime I see a 'non binary' female, they always seem to default to masculine presentation.
Many also have their breasts removed.
Why? If they don't feel male or female do they try to remove the feminine?

SerenityNowwwww · 30/06/2020 12:43

It's like saying your eye or hair colour isn't what it is - say if you were stuck somewhere without hair dye or coloured contacts and nature just runs its course? It is what it is. You can dye your hair or use coloured contacts - but that wouldn't really make me blonde and brown-eyed?

After lockdown, there's going to be a lot more 'natural greys' around!

SarahTancredi · 30/06/2020 12:46

Except fortunately changing your hair colour isnt the difference between being sent home with pain killers and having an ectopic pregnancy removed before it ruptures and you bleed out.

GiantKitten · 30/06/2020 12:53

Is there any anecdata about transgender/NB boys in secondary schools? Is it only girls?

It has seemed for a long time that the young ones are FtM and the older ones are MtF, when given TRA rhetoric about sexed brains etc it should surely be fairly even at all ages.

SarahTancredi · 30/06/2020 12:58

Well this is the point giant

Where are all the middle aged transmen? The ones who now it's more socially acceptable etc decided to become their true selves?

We know the workd is a dangerous place for women and girls. Spy cameras everywhere, porn, sexual harassment and rape even in.primary schools...

And where were these transwomen when women werent able to work or vote or access birth control etc?

okiedokieme · 30/06/2020 13:04

Out of the 6 kids I knew from early teens who expressed gender issues, only 3 have transitioned. It's common to question your place in the world as a young teen. In some communities being trans has less stigma than being gay.

That said I know two ftm who have had phase one surgery and one is due the second op imminently (delayed due to covid) and are very happy. The crucial thing is support without encouraging, hard!

CaveMum · 30/06/2020 13:43

The thing is, if you take it to the extreme, we’re all non-binary really as no one conforms to the strict stereotypes that Mermaids like to spout with Barbie at one end or GI Joe at the other, so we’re all on that spectrum somewhere and therefore non-binary is nothing special.

I preferred it when “gender Identity” was known by its other name - personality!

HopeClearwater · 30/06/2020 16:11

@PastMyBestBeforeDate yes, you were both failed. Awful.

PopperUppleton · 30/06/2020 16:46

It appears NB stands for No Breasts. Why is the default male-looking?

CaveMum · 30/06/2020 17:04

PopperUppleton because, as Caroline Criado-Perez says in her book “Invisible Women”:

The effect of lockdown on transitioning teen girls
ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/07/2020 08:51

Not Aristotle's brightest moment then!
If anything, XY is the aberration - although not really either. But without women there would be no birth, no reproduction, because men cannot carry a foetus. But there would be no conception without men either, so it's balanced.
So hardly an aberration.
The old Adam and Eve bunkum was just to keep women in second place.
However, men ARE seen as the default because they have never been discommoded by period cramps, being pregnant, giving birth or having to carry a breastfeeding baby around. That's the WOMAN's role. Men just keep on doing what they do regardless until they get hurt.

So much for progressive thinking. Hmm

This is a really interesting thread - especially the indications that the peer pot situation (I won't say pressure as such, just a "group dynamic" thing) is heavily involved in SOME kids' feelings that they might be trans.

I also object violently to the schools going behind that parents' backs - outrageous behaviour, and yes, WHERE is the safeguarding in all of this?
As for the clinicians involved, WHERE is the medical first principle of "First do no harm"?

The Tavistock clinic did conduct a review, apparently, but it was an internal review and found nothing wrong. Several clinicians left before the review, and more after, as they felt that the ethos of the clinic was definitely more about pushing the transition, and less about helping the kids work out if they were genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria, of something else was at play.

This post is a terrible mishmash of thoughts but anyway - I have a young relative who is autistic. She believes implicitly what she is taught by a teacher. Here in Australia, we don't have religious education in schools, it's proscribed - BUT there is the option of having any religious entity come into the school to teach "scripture", and the schools are not allowed to refuse - they must allocate a segment in the week for these classes. They are not taught by teachers but by religious volunteers, and what is taught is not overseen by the Education Dept here. My young relative went to scripture classes (default situation - you have to opt out of them) and immediately absorbed the lesson that "If you were bad you went to HELL!" which she played out with her dolls and had nightmares about. She is that suggestible. I'm sure she's not the only autistic child to be that way, or even the only child to be that way. I'm equally sure that Not All Autistic Children Are Like That - but her autism certainly plays a big part in her vulnerability to taking ideas on board.
If she were to come up against someone who told her she was trans, she would accept that and become trans - she would be one of the ROGD girls. She's right in the "danger zone" age now - and I really hope she gets through it safely.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 01/07/2020 09:30

The Tavistock clinic did conduct a review, apparently, but it was an internal review and found nothing wrong.

Actually, if this is the thing I think you are referring to, it’s even worse than that!

The internal review was conducted by Dr David Bell and it found lots and lots of things wrong but the higher ups chose to ignore it.

David Bell spoke at the MCR Detransitioners event. He is still employed by the trust (he doesn’t work directly for GIDS) so he spoke in his personal capacity. He was very good, and expressed alarm that whatever it was that happened in 2014/2015 that caused FtM paediatric referrals to soar, many professionals show absolutely no curiosity in finding out what it was:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

So far I have found the CBBC programme about an FtM kid named Leo aired in November 2014

m.youtube.com/watch?v=0x_u2cs8DpI

and Stonewall officially added trans to their remit in February 2015.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who has noticed similar 2014/15 events in Australia/America/Northern and Central Europe.

The effect of lockdown on transitioning teen girls
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 01/07/2020 09:32

Missed the Stonewall link: www.vercida.com/uk/articles/stonewall-ceo-ruth-hunt

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/07/2020 11:13

Sorry, yes, my "they did nothing wrong" was an inaccurate recollection - I knew that the general reaction of the clinic was to change very little as they believed there was nothing wrong (the director, at least) which is shocking given the results of the audit.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/07/2020 13:17

DuDuDu I heard Dr David Bell speak at Holyrood. It is extraordinary that anyone could dismiss what he has to say.

He presents stats and case studies in a way that is inarguable. And yet they argue. I cannot understand how anyone could.

bishopgiggles · 01/07/2020 13:21

Here in Australia, we don't have religious education in schools, it's proscribed - BUT there is the option of having any religious entity come into the school to teach "scripture", and the schools are not allowed to refuse - they must allocate a segment in the week for these classes. They are not taught by teachers but by religious volunteers, and what is taught is not overseen by the Education Dept here.

Wahhhhaaat? So could they have people from say 6 different religions coming each week? Could they be Scientologists?

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 01/07/2020 15:55

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

DuDuDu I heard Dr David Bell speak at Holyrood. It is extraordinary that anyone could dismiss what he has to say.

He presents stats and case studies in a way that is inarguable. And yet they argue. I cannot understand how anyone could.

He is an interesting and thoughtful man.

I have been similarly impressed by both Marcus and Susan Evans and the anonymous female clinicians who co-authored the letter for WPUK.

Such a shame that the people who seem to me to be best placed to help gender distressed children, adolescents and adults are ignored and/or sidelined in favour of the Mermaids-True-Believers types.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

There are clearly some very concerned professionals within GIDS past and present.

I know that when talking about my own stepdaughter’s gender difficulties I was encouraged, by a former GIDS psychologist (one of the 35 ‘quitters’) to keep her as far away from the service as humanly possible, because while there are still some very good, well rounded, open minded professionals there, as a parent you have no idea whether your kid will be assigned to one of them or not.

Better to try and access private talking therapy to talk about every topic BUT gender, and get them to the other side of puberty without risking permanent health consequences.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51806962

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childrens-transgender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/06/children-cannot-give-consent-transgender-treatment-nurse-launching/

Siablue · 01/07/2020 16:11

DulangDulang where are the quitters now. It is so sad that there is this pool of people who are qualified to help and there are so many young people who need it.

It is also good and reassuring that there are many thoughtful practitioners still working there.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/07/2020 17:06

@bishopgiggles - to be honest, I don't know exactly how it works!

And I wasn't entirely accurate with my statement - I should have said there is no religious education in STATE schools because most private schools are religious and there's plenty of it in there!

At my DSs' primary school, the Scripture teachers were from a range of Protestant churches in the locale. But I asked the Principal at one point "if a Muslim leader wanted to come in and teach their religion, would that be allowed?" And I believe the answer was yes, if no other religious organisation had already taken the slot.
I don't know whether Scientologists qualify though!

There is an alternative though - ethics classes are offered in some primary schools (including ours) - but you have to opt IN to these classes. And if you opt out of scripture, and don't opt in to ethics, then you have to do something like colouring in during the time period, so that you don't gain an educational advantage over those doing scripture or ethics.

Personally I would much rather see them introduce formal education in religious and cultural studies, that covers all the major world religions, than this situation.

Viviennemary · 01/07/2020 17:08

What does this even mean.

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