TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

I would like to know if trans women are women, what are they transing from?

I’m excited to see a trans poster who is keen to have a debate rather than close it down, or be verbally abusive. Welcome to Mumsnet Billi.

I see we haven't got past first page with what is a woman and define woman!

It’s quite important! Can you say what you think? Would like to hear why OP believes TWAW, too. Genuinely.

Good point, not getting into a debate about it probably best way as never ends well, just seeing if it's an echo chamber or not - hope some lurkers pop up to say yay or nay too

The women here patiently and repeatedly explain their position, why they are not anti-trans but pro women. Is it too much to ask that someone who comes along to the feminism chat board and states that they believe TWAW should do the same? It’s just reasonable isn’t it?

The vast vast vast amount of posters on mumsnet are not anti trans

And ‘trans’ stuff as bun put it is quite frequently in the newspapers, its not just on mn and twitter

Oh and magazines...obvs

Alright - what explains the difference in brain structure between trans women and cis men?

But you started with 'women who believe that...'

Now I'm fairly sure that I'm a woman, & whilst I'm sure that I don't believe TWAW, I know there are women that do.

So when we both use the word 'women', what do we both mean? Are our definitions different?

Because if your starting point is a definition of women that doesn't include me (I don't 'identify' as a woman; I just have female biology), then we're already unable to agree on the most basic terms.

At which point, if I'm honest, I can't see what you are hoping to achieve. A thread for people who identify as women regardless of biology to say that they believe that people who identify as women regardless of biology are, in fact, people who identify as women regardless of biology?

Have you dissected many brains bunpot?

Oh. I see someone's "repurposed the glitterball".
No idea who that was in response to but is it because people have started with different viewpoints?
"Red flag" glitterball incoming bat signal?
There's no wonder no one engages with the define questions anymore.
The OP literally said women who say TWAW.
Not I want a define debate.

And what floral just said

Loads of feminists say twaw

People just want EVERY feminist to say it

I would also like to know why you object so much to campaigning for a third space rather than use women’s spaces? If you are a feminist you should understand why women and girls need their own spaces - even Harrop is campaigning for third spaces now!

@bunpot

Alright - what explains the difference in brain structure between trans women and cis men?

Theres a thread on here about that. You might find your answer there.

Am also happy to discuss why I believe TWAW based on personal experience.

OK then discussion starts .... now!

You can't say you're happy to discuss something and then fail to discuss it and expect us not to notice. How thick do you think we are?

Honestly - what do you want to be said? You want a space for women who think twaw ... and? Then what? You start a thread with a very vague premise and then add nothing of any value to it. If you want a discussion or a support thread or a general chat you need to be bit more - well - chatty.

Otherwise other people will fill the silence. And it's not shouting you down if you're not saying anything.

And women

Obvs

One day im gonna write a coherent post and youre all gonna be shocked

bunpot, that's a claim that needs a source, of course. As far as I'm aware, there was a study that showed males who had some hormone treatment showed differences to males who hadn't. Perhaps you mean something else, though.

Which particular study are you referring to bunpot?

There is a thread here from earlier this evening discussing findings in the area. There seems to be a lot of methodological issues though.

@TheSingingKettle49

Hi OP, you believe TWAW, so can you tell us a bit more about how you came to this view?

Do you you understand why some people don’t hold the view that TWAW?

Thanks

Hello. On personal experience it is mostly via having women throughout my life who have transitioned. It is impossible for me to see these people as men. Broadly speaking many trans people are also marginalised and compromised. I feel that welcoming them into feminist and LGB circles is a better way of healthier way of teaching them about the lived female experience than ostracising them. I do understand why many women do not hold the view that TWAW. I’m also aware that there is a lot hostility coming from both sides of the argument.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains
Nobody ever engages with the define question. Never mind “any more” - it never happens.

not getting into a debate about it probably best way as never ends well

Ahh, #nodebate. That takes me back a bit to when this here town was just fields (wafts hand briefly across threads). (That's a lie, I only discovered FWR threads when the original awesome nurturers had grown proper crops and were thrashing off swarms of #nodebate-rs!)

Thank fuck for the end of #nodebate.

Nobody ever engages with the define question. Never mind “any more” - it never happens

That's just bull though.
It's happened loads.
It's never an answer anyone likes though so it gets pretended that nothing was ever said or we can't understand

On personal experience it is mostly via having women throughout my life who have transitioned. It is impossible for me to see these people as men.

Do you feel the same about everyone who claims to be trans? Yaniv for example, or Karen White?

Are they women in your view?

@Billi77 thank you.

I’d also like to know if you’ve ever been a victim of male violence or harassment?

And

Would you consider a trans person as a romantic partner for yourself?

Lemonade, dont derail Billis thread please.