TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

[Notpot]

And you broke the rules. One you didn’t answer. Two ‘identify’ comes under the heading of ‘feels’

[TheSingingKettle49]

Half of the worlds population are women and half are men, each person is different in their own unique thoughts and feelings and the only thing that unites all women is that we are born with vaginas and all men are born with penises.

To go any further than this in such a huge group would draw cries of ‘but some men have breasts’ or ‘but some women are over 6ft’ or ‘some men like typically female things or some women like typically male things and and so on...

Now I don’t think we should bring people with DSD (intersex) into it because 1. They are a very very small minority who are either male or female with an anomaly of development and 2. Some people are born with one arm or 6 toes but that doesn’t change how many arms or toes a standard human has.

Really the rhetoric should change to transwomen identify with women because that would be more accurate and I think a lot of people could sympathise with that a lot more easily.

We could then recognise that people born with vaginas need more protection in law, not because all need it but because all have the possibility of needing it because of the type of bodies they have.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

My cat is female. If she hadn't been spayed she could have gotten pregnant. My cat cannot "identify" as anything, because she's a cat, and yet she and I both belong to the class "female" and that is a meaningful distinction in a way that "likes femininity" is not.

[Justhadathought]

I guess one possible answer Nellie could give is a woman is someone who is not a man But then you would have to say what differentiates a man from a woman for that to make any sense.


Or Nellie could say A woman is anyone who feels like one But for that to make any sense you would have to know what being a woman feels like, and how is feeling like a woman any different to feeling like anything else.

Do all women feel the same? If not, how do they know they are women? What do women have in common? Is there something that women have in common with each other that they do not have in common with men?

I suspect that at the end of the day Nellie is going to have to conceded that if Woman is just a meaningless word that anyone can use, why not cut the crap right now, and just choose another word that is not already taken. Why is it so important that we are expected to have to share the word?

This meaningless word sounds as if it is actually quite a loaded word.

[Winesalot]

But, am I right in thinking that she has since been 'found to be biological male'?

Caster Semenya has one of the DSDs and I believe that they have internal testes. Yes, this is a very sensitive one. However, in one of her races (I think in the last olympics) she and two other runners with the same or similar DSD took all three medals.

As FondofBeetles (Dr Emma Hilton on Twitter) study shows, Caster and the other runners went through male puberty and have the benefits of that development. So, while it is a very divisive case, being shown to have that benefit does mean in my mind, they have a benefit over other females so it does mean it is not a level playing (or running) field. What do you think?

[VickyEadieofThigh]

In the midst of all this, some men dress as women and they are still men, some men have identified as women in order to rape women and they too are still men. These are not women.

Stonewall says "acceptance without exception" - and in the terms you argue, they are correct. Who decides which male is "true trans" and which is 'still a man'?

Billi77 You appear to have some criteria by which women can identify these 'not true trans' and keep them out of our spaces, sports, etc - can you be specific about what these are and how that would work?

You also define 'woman' as "someone who identifies as female". What, therefore, is your definition of 'female'? The sort of definition that might appear in a dictionary, not your circular evasive 'a woman is a woman' type.

We have to keep asking this because otherwise - a man saying he identifies as a woman has no actual thing to identify with - has he?

[LemonadeAndDaisyChains]

My cat cannot "identify" as anything, because she's a cat, and yet she and I both belong to the class "female" and that is a meaningful distinction in a way that "likes femininity" is not

Yes, there's the biological aspect - but it's also possible to "know" you are a woman that has nothing to do with biology.
Not feels, not, pink.
I'd love to know all the answers myself, anyone who figures it all out would be rich lol

[TyroSaysMeow]

If I scroll up will it be Swiss cheese, Kittens?

I have three more questions.

1. Is an adulthumanfemale who's in a permanent vegetative state a woman?
   
   
2. Is an adulthumanfemale having a psychotic break and convinced she's a vacuum cleaner a woman?
   
   
3. I went to pleb school; can someone with better Latin update the cogito for me?
   
   Since we don't seem to have moved on from Plato's day, I'd like to offer up a new definition of "woman" - a featherless biped with boobs. settles in and waits for the genetically modified chicken photos to roll in-

[Winesalot]

they have a benefit over other females so it does mean it is not a level playing (or running) field.

I just want to point out that I do not want to bring DSDs into the discussion of who is or is not a female. People with DSDs should be respected for who they are and not used as a debating tool.

I have also referred to Caster as a female, but I have not confirmed how they identify. Merely that through hormones during puberty, their body has developed with the benefits of a different hormone level to females without that DSD.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

A woman is a person who identifies as a woman.

I'm going to repeat what's already been said at least once on this thread. That doesn't work.

To identify as something is a signaller that it is something the person isn't already, and to identify as a woman logically has to mean that there is a fixed meaning of what a woman is: a biological female. This is language to express someone identifying as something specific that they are not. Which is fine as a concept btw.

That definition logically means 'women is adult human females and adult human males who identify as women'. That is not one classification, you haven't achieved the grounds or terms that make them into one classification.

And it's by the by, because the issue still is, however kind you want to be and nice about language, and however lucky you are in your privilege that you are able to share mixed sex spaces, many females are not.

The 'enemy' as you put it, is female people being left without any provision at all.

That is the very real, immediate, already happening issue for females as a class. Is that a problem to you? Or is your concern and kindness prioritised on male people who identify as women? Who incidentally already have provision now, and could have any sort of additional provisions to meet their needs, but want to totally remove and have female provisions. Which will exclude some females from any provision at all.

Is this something you're ok with?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

What Billi and Nellly are proposing seems to be a sort of "a woman is anyone who says they identify as a woman and who I don't think is dodgy" system, and the problem with that is that's not what Stonewall says, and nor is it the way guidelines are being implemented in practice. And both still want to exclude some self declared transwomen from women's spaces, so this really does seem to come down to a debate about why women here aren't being "nicer" rather than about whether TWAW, because both have admitted that not all who say they are are.

So actually this is a thread about female social conformity, and how it's terrible that some women won't conform no matter how much pressure is put on them to do so.

[Billi77]

@VickyEadieofThigh

In the midst of all this, some men dress as women and they are still men, some men have identified as women in order to rape women and they too are still men. These are not women.

Stonewall says "acceptance without exception" - and in the terms you argue, they are correct. Who decides which male is "true trans" and which is 'still a man'?

Billi77 You appear to have some criteria by which women can identify these 'not true trans' and keep them out of our spaces, sports, etc - can you be specific about what these are and how that would work?

You also define 'woman' as "someone who identifies as female". What, therefore, is your definition of 'female'? The sort of definition that might appear in a dictionary, not your circular evasive 'a woman is a woman' type.

We have to keep asking this because otherwise - a man saying he identifies as a woman has no actual thing to identify with - has he?

This is mostly preemptive as somebody is bound to bring up Karen White again.
I do not agree with Stonewall on zero exception. When there is a threat of a man posing as a woman to facilitate rape, for example. Karen White was not investigated before gaining access to a women’s prison. They only passed the local board where there should have been 3 stages of investigations. This exposes the utter negligence of the prison system in this country. I’m talking about Karen White again...
But there are other examples and caveats. When are there not?

[BigGee]

Spot on, Prodigal kittens.

[Winesalot]

Billi and Nellle

What do you feel about Alex Drummond and Pippa Bunce?

[tarkovsky]

You can’t identify as female. Your sex is observed and noted. The only people who are assigned female or male at birth are intersex people who have nothing to do with this debate. Do you understand the implications of what you’re saying, Billi? Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex. When you say that anyone can identify with our sex, you’re saying that our oppression is something that one can opt in and out of. So the women who suffer from female genital mutilation should have just said they identify as male? And they wouldn’t be oppressed anymore? Cause that’s the implicit suggestion here. If I start identifying as male, it won’t stop me from menstruating. I’ll still have to pay for sanitary pads and experience debilitating pain for a few days. You can’t just wish material reality away with language.

Why is it so hard for you to look at women as a class of people with only one defining common trait which is the sex that they’re born with(female) and which is immutable and can not be changed. The whole point of feminism is to eliminate sex-based oppression and our oppression cannot be co-opted by someone from our oppressor class(males). It’s really offensive to imply otherwise.
Transwomen should have their own spaces and political movement cause their priorities and needs are different. What is throwing women and their sex-based rights and protections under the bus to appease a subsection of transwomen going to achieve, i seriously want to know? It’s not nefarious to suggest that different marginalised groups prioritise themselves and advocate separately. We can still be allies.

[Justhadathought]

Caster Semenya. I LOVE the Olympics. I have not read enough about her to know the situation, so I'm sure you'll put me straight (is she intersex?), but I'm sure I saw the tide turn really harshly against her? First, when she was accepted as 'female' she was defended for the terrible treatment she received, creepy obsession with her build and appearance and forced to take hormones

Semenya was legally identified as female at birth but has male biological characteristics, male levels of the hormone testosterone after puberty, and therefore an unfair advantage over 'other' female athletes,

From an early age Semenya, though, was seen as a tomboy- in that she played with the boys, liked football, and was " too rough" when playing with the girls, and so was not allowed to play football with the girls at school. \Which was a shame for her, because she loved football. She was not allowed to play with the boys team because she was 'a girl'.

Her father says she was always like a boy, and sounded like a boy and now "sounds like a man" on the phone She preferred to dress as a boy, and preferred the company of boys. she wore the boys school uniform.

She is now married to a woman.

[SarahTancredi]

But surely those investigating wouldn't actually need to be there or investigate if it wasnt acknowledged at some stage that they were male?

Single sex spaces is part of safeguarding procedures. So what you are suggesting really is acknowledging sex based crimes and statistics on sex based violence to be applied to someone of that sex whilst simultaneously treating them as a woman?

Is that level of degrees of separation enough to be able to maintain the twaw stance whilst acknowledging they are male as that's someone elses job and you dont have to have anything to do with it...

[Justhadathought]

Biologically she is male, although legally female.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Even if you find somehow a way to regulate and gatekeep which TW are allowed into female spaces - and frankly I would agree with TW that this would be unfair and discriminatory and would struggle to see how that could stand up in court, not to mention seeing female spaces as some sort of gift to be earned, which as a female I resent -

even if you keep it to just the really lovely TW who are personal friends of yours and you can personally vouch for,

Their presence will still exclude those groups of vulnerable women. Who will have no provision at all, in order for those TW to have their preferred choice of provision.

How is this justifiable? What happens to those women?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

And "biologically female" needs to be the dividing line for sports, because anything else is unfair and potentially unsafe.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Also in practical terms:

A criminal record of sex offending against females isn't grounds to refuse a GRC.

It is inappropriate and not allowed to request to see identification from a TW entering a female single sex space.

How exactly would it be possible in practice to gate keep which TW use female single sex spaces and keep it to the vetted, permitted ones? That may work in risk assessments for prison placement, but isn't really going to work anywhere else that I can see?

[bluebluezoo]

Caster has a dsd and is not relevant to the Trans discussion.

@Justhadathought are you saying caster is male because she fits male stereotype?

She was born and raised female. Just because a child behaves like a boy or is a “tom boy” doesn’t mean they are male.

[7Days]

Well you're just as hateful a Terf as any on here, Billi & Nelle
If you concede that sometimes transwomen are not the same as women, and sometimes separate provision should be made, you're agreeing with the GC main point.

We should have gender based rights when it matters and sex based rights when it matters.
But the hardcore TRA's dont want sex to be considered at all

[Tootletum]

The case of Semenya is very sad and so very unusual. It doesn't seem all that relevant though. At any rate, maybe the common ground here is that the vast majority of trans women are entirely harmless. Unfortunately, I think it's very optimistic to think that this means there should be no process at all to gaining access to women's spaces. I would also assume the vast majority of transitioning trans people accept that it's going to be a fraught time if you are walking into a bathroom when you look like the opposite gender. I don't actually think there is a problem outside a) Twitter and b) prisons. The GRA stays as it is, what's the problem. US trans people just gained employment discrimination protection, which is welcome. Now....can we just all go back to pictures of kittens?

[Winesalot]

@Tootletum

The case of Semenya is very sad and so very unusual. It doesn't seem all that relevant though. At any rate, maybe the common ground here is that the vast majority of trans women are entirely harmless. Unfortunately, I think it's very optimistic to think that this means there should be no process at all to gaining access to women's spaces. I would also assume the vast majority of transitioning trans people accept that it's going to be a fraught time if you are walking into a bathroom when you look like the opposite gender. I don't actually think there is a problem outside a) Twitter and b) prisons. The GRA stays as it is, what's the problem. US trans people just gained employment discrimination protection, which is welcome. Now....can we just all go back to pictures of kittens?

The relevance is just that they have experienced a puberty with different level of hormones due to having a DSD. Not that they are trans at all. However, that puberty has meant there are biological advantages which is relevant to the inclusion of people who have had this advantage participating against women who have not.