TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

[Destroyedpeople]

I used to think that transwomen were post op like the one or two that I knew. Who were just living their lives 'as women'. But now it seems anyone can just say they are a woman and we ate all spose to think that's ok.

[Thegenderbreadperson]

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains
But if people are answering “a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman” that isn’t really an answer is it - it’s a circular statement - how can you identify with something you cannot even define?

[FloralBunting]

Ok, Billi77, so I'm actually not hearing TWAW there. I'm hearing TWANM. Can you see why I'm not convinced that stands up as a feminist viewpoint? I get that teaching male people about the lived experience of women is worthwhile, obviously. I try and do it myself on the daily. But that doesn't mean a male who is profoundly uncomfortable with his body and /or the expectations of cultural masculinity is a woman, does it?

[doublehalo]

Why do the lesbians and feminists have to teach TW about the lived female experience? Can't their Mums, sisters or friends give them some tips? Or their ex wives? Or the women they work with?

[prolefeed]

Ohhhhhhhh. So. The reason that you aren’t posting long informational posts explaining your point of view and personal experience that led you to this position is be you don’t want to engage with people who don’t believe TWAW.
Hmmmm.
So if no one had posted to ask why, you would have explained yourself, but only to people that agree?
There are forums dedicated to specific points of view. (I have a membership to tv chix somewhere, which has enlightening content).
If you knew mn was renowned for not considering tw to be w, why wouldn’t you just join twitter? We’ve all been banned from there anyway due to the whole biology issue.

[Doyoumind]

You're from the "be nice" brigade then.

No one here wishes any harm to trans people. We want to protect sex based rights. We're not anti trans just pro female.

[bishopgiggles]

I do understand why many women do not hold the view that TWAW.

This is interesting - could you expand on this, so that I can say whether it aligns with my beliefs or not?

Just to hopefully be helpful, OP, in a busy thread like this it's best to copy in bold to quote what you are replying to directly, otherwise it gets confusing who you're responding to/which points.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

On OPs latest comment, I too have met many transwomen over the years, and not a single one of them has ever read as a woman to me. The gay ones I usually get along OK with, but then I get along well with gay males in general so no surprises there.

[Livpool]

Can I ask why you believe TWAW?

What is a woman to you?

[bishopgiggles]

Is the reason you can't see feminine males as men because you hold preconceptions of what men should act like/look like/behave like?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

you don’t want to engage with people who don’t believe TWAW.

Is this the case, OP? If so I'll be happy to respect your wishes but I suspect you may end up with a rather quiet thread.

[LemonadeAndDaisyChains]

Lol at Lemonade being so incredibly angry about women here having a way to communicate

I'm really not angry at women communicating, seriously I'm not lol - why do you automatically think I'm angry just because I have a different opinion?
That's what's bizarre.

[HipTightOnions]

It's happened loads.
It's never an answer anyone likes though so it gets pretended that nothing was ever said or we can't understand

I have been quietly reading everything on this board for a few years. So far I have seen, rarely, “anyone who identifies as a woman” and once (I kid you not) “anyone whose appearance is judged like a woman’s”.

That’s it. So no, although the question is often asked, there’s never an answer.

[prolefeed]

Apols billi. X post.
I know quite a few old style transsexuals too. The ones called truscum now. They henuinyeant to get on with their lives and are horrified at the new stonewall I’m Reya day attempts to legally remove sex as a protected category.
I’m going to guess that your friends are the same. Have you discussed the removal of sex as a protected category with them?

[Soontobe60]

@Billi77

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

'Us' being transwomen?

[Billi77]

I don’t feel the same about everyone who claims to be trans, no.
I see the Karen White story as another horrific story about a male rapist rather than a story about a trans woman
I don’t know enough about Yaniv to hold any strong opinions.
I try not to engage in stories about mentally ill individuals who have entered to debate to enable a wider angle on things.

[prolefeed]

They just want.
Is mn deliberately fucking my typing to subscribe to premium?

[bishopgiggles]

OP, how do you differentiate between someone who 'claims to be trans' and someone who is? How does one know definitively whether someone is trans or not?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

There was a drag queen who used to do my eye makeup for me sometimes because he was better with liquid liner than I was, steadier hands and all. Still a man!

[pombear]

But to engage, hoping you're wanting a conversation rather than delivering a lecture or hoping for screenshots.

On personal experience it is mostly via having women throughout my life who have transitioned. It is impossible for me to see these people as men.

What do you think that others should do who don't have personal experience of those people, and therefore may see them as men still?

Broadly speaking many trans people are also marginalised and compromised. I feel that welcoming them into feminist and LGB circles is a better way of healthier way of teaching them about the lived female experience than ostracising them.

I don't really understand that sentence on two levels. Firstly - there are lots of groups who are marginalised and compromised. For example, the traveller community. Should feminists welcome all males from the traveller community into feminism? Only those who want to be taught about 'lived female experience'?

Secondly - why do women need to teach about 'lived female experience'? The current narrative seems to be 'educate yourself, it's not my job to educate you' from groups who are discriminated against. Why is it specifically women who need to be teaching others (eg males) about 'lived female experience'?

[Impatiens]

It's never an answer anyone likes though so it gets pretended that nothing was ever said or we can't understand

It's not a pretence - if you aren't able to define woman in a way that could include transwomen then nothing has been said that will persuade people to believe TWAW and pp won't understand your assertion.

[RufustheRowlingReindeer]

I see the Karen White story as another horrific story about a male rapist rather than a story about a trans woman

Even though she identifies as a transwoman

[Pertella]

So how are you making the distinction between the type of transwoman who is a woman and the type of transwoman who is a man?