Stephen King retweets JKR

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

A Dworkin quote.

Benny. Not all men are rapists. But we still don’t let them into places where women are naked. By your account, if they put on a fucking dress, they get a free pass. Everywhere. Rape refuges, prisons, hospital wards, sports teams, podiums, all-female political shortlists, women in business awards.
You are about to nod through the removal of sex as a protected characteristic in law because you believe women do not need rights.
Thanks a fucking lot.

by this logic would you be happy to accept very male looking trans men into these spaces as you consider them women?

I under people think of this as a gotcha. It isn't.
One of the reasons policy is written so that transgender persons can use whichever changing room they feel comfortable in is because the writers of policy do not want to require transmen to go into the males space. Because of the sex based risk.
Transmen are incarcerated in the women's estate for the same reason.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

Should read "I understand".

@OldCrone sorry I just read the two links you sent and right away it jumped out that the IDW and the Quilette make these kinds of arguments, apologies if that is not representative.

As for the Quillette, contributors Claire Lehmann has a history with the 'human biodiversity movement', Toby Young describes himself as a 'progressive eugenicist, and they defend people like Charles Murray writer of the infamous 'the bell curve'

But just like to say I have had my mind changed somewhat tonight for what it's worth

Very gracious of you Benny.
If you decide to campaign for third spaces, let us know how you get on. Or maybe a campaign to help your feminine-presenting brothers feel safe in men's spaces? You already have a slogan:
JUST SCREAM

Go well

@Pregnamechange

Reading through this is so depressing. Benny appreciate your input and I’m sure you’re a well meaning person, but welcome to terfdom mate. I’ve seen this so much especially on Twitter, people arguing what they think are the opposite points to gender critical women but are actually just saying the same shit that we’ve been getting rape threats for. It just feels so demoralising that people actually have no idea what’s going on under the new Trans regime but are coming along to try and educate us out of our transphobia.

Most of the people on this board are supportive of trans people and trans rights. We’re just doing what you are doing and trying to come up with solutions that don’t compromise our own rights and safety. Unfortunately this is not allowed at all according to TRAs as any distinction made between transwomen and biological women is hateful.

I'm sorry to hear that and I do think your are right in what your saying. I read the JK Rowling piece and thought yea it's ok but there's a lot of personal stuff in there and her personal experiences (feeling sexless etc) aren't grounds for her to deny any trans person the right to do what makes them feel happy. Then I read the mermaid group's reply and thought it was very powerful and it points to evidence which says the opposite to the widely held opinion on here that allowing trans people into female spaces leads to abuses. I was of the opinion after that that if you objected to this you had a weird grudge against them but after listening to some of the views on here I think women having issues with this is fair and makes sense. It's a tough one.

I'm sure I pissed a lot of people off but I'm new to the issue, and outside it really so I apologise for my earliest comments.

robin

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

TehBewilderness so true and so depressing. How is it women that are getting the blame for this? Everyone needs a safe space from men - women, transwomen and trans men.

Again that’s not to tar all men with the same brush. We of course know they are not all a risk. But we wouldn’t just let all and sundry men into a rape crisis centre because we were worried about offending them. As a PP said my husband is not a risk to women but he is rightly not allowed in women’s single sex spaces and I would be deeply concerned if he had a problem with that.

regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime

In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#s3

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

You beat me to it :)

Various posts here about the evidence of brain differences in trans people, if anyone cares to look. Lots of other science discussed too.

The Glinner thing www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3951265-The-Glinner-thing

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden
@aliasundercover

I have already quoted Cecilia Dhejne who has clarified that research that she conducted that you are both quoting.

"f one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

So it seems trans women did retain male patterns of criminality in the past but they don't anymore. Perhaps this is because society has changed and become more tolerant and the socialisation into gender roles easier to come back from.

While it seems like a complicated issue, I don't think you can use this study to say trans women are the same threat as men because the lead research on the study says that is not the case anymore. They will know their own work

[quote aliasundercover]@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

You beat me to it :)[/quote]
It bears repeating

@Pregnamechange

TehBewilderness so true and so depressing. How is it women that are getting the blame for this? Everyone needs a safe space from men - women, transwomen and trans men.

Again that’s not to tar all men with the same brush. We of course know they are not all a risk. But we wouldn’t just let all and sundry men into a rape crisis centre because we were worried about offending them. As a PP said my husband is not a risk to women but he is rightly not allowed in women’s single sex spaces and I would be deeply concerned if he had a problem with that.

Yes. In fact I think you may have found the 'test' that Benny was talking about.

On entry to a woman's space, people who look like men should be asked: 'do you want to go in there, even though the women in there are vulnerable and are uncomfortable with your presence?'

If the answer is 'no of course not. I'll go in the mens - or is there another space I can use?' that person is probably safe to be there - but won't be because they have respect.

If they say 'yeah. I want to go in there. I'm a woman just like them and I don't give a crap if they're uncomfortable' then they are a narcissist, have no respect for boundaries and need to fuck right off.

Either way, women get their own space and we are not tarring anyone with a brush they have not chosen for themselves.

Done.

Thanks Benny. All women ask is that you listen to what we are saying, use your critical thinking skills, and investigate thoroughly before writing off anyone desperately fighting to retain sex based provision as a bigot.
Read around the board, engage. There is a reason we are so fucking angry. Writing us off when you have not had the courtesy to look up your own ‘solutions’ and realise that your own views are as ‘transphobic’ as ours is enraging.
But thank you for pausing and allowing a chink of women’s needs in. Stay. Read. Learn. You can still disagree. 🤷‍♀️

I looked through that and yes there are definitely people who are trans who are predatory and maybe even a tiny amount of predators who would pretend to be trans to get access to victims. But you can't paint them all with the same brush

No, and we don't. What we do is apply the same safeguarding measures as we apply to all males - for eg. My husband is actually a great guy and would never harm a hair on a woman's head. His exclusion from all-female spaces is not "painting him with the same brush" as predatory males. Sex-segregrated facilities are there for a reason - and the reason is to allow women safety and privacy away from males. Before we had them, women were essentially barred from public life.

Have a read of this to see the history of women's sex-segregated toilets - we've only had them in the UK for just over 100 years. www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Transwomen are entitled to rights and safety - but that shouldn't mean just allowing any male who self-identifies as a woman into female spaces. That absolutely opens it up to potential predators - because that allows any man to say "I'm a woman". Hell, with self-ID, they don't even have to dress as women to self-identify as women.

The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

Yes, that is very misleadingly worded. When you divide the group into two, the numbers of violent crime convictions become too small for statistical significance. . This would happen with any study if you divide the study population arbitrarily into small enough groups. They didn't find the later group of TW are less violent. They just found that the numbers are too small to say anything meaningful when you make smaller subgroups.
It's a fudge, in other words. That quote is fudging the truth and doesn't change the reported finding in her study that transwomen are 30 times more violent than women.

Now, your turn. Find a study that proves transwomen aren't as violent as men.

Because a man who feels like a woman and wishes to identify as one is often vulnerable in the way a woman is to sexual assault. If someone is transitioning it's because they feel like a woman. The online commentary on this issue has overlooked why they are doing it, not to hurt anyone but to live the way they want to live.

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"? How can you know what it "feels" like to be a woman? You can only know what "feeling" like a woman is if you have actually lived in a woman's body and actually, you know, EXPERIENCED the things that having a woman's body brings. Which is a bit more than "deciding what to wear each morning".

I'm an extremely mild-tempered, soft-spoken woman who doesn't even use swear words and who has never once yelled at anyone -- ever! But this nonsense has tried me to my very limits. These people have NO IDEA what it is to be a woman, and their "hurt feelings" means absolutely nothing to me. I am not going to #bekind.

I have lived all my life in not only a female body but a black female body and I have never once complained to anyone about what I've gone through and trust me, I know all about hurt feelings. But I didn't go whingeing to everyone or tried to police anyone's racist or sexist thoughts, and wallowed in and nursed my poor hurt feelings or expected anyone else to wallow in and nurse them, because, you know, I had a life to live and I saw my feelings as something I could and would get over, and I worked at myself and matured and grew strong and just got on with being and doing my best and raising my family and doing my work. And transwomen whinging publicly about being vulnerable and oppressed and wanting their hurt feelings pandered to leaves me stone cold. And I am usually a very warm and embracing person but I have reached the limit of my compassion through observing this absolute shitshow.

And I cannot believe that there are women, self-described "trans allies", who care more about the hurt feelings of men demanding the right to share loos and showers and changing rooms and sports with women because of hurt feelings. No, just no.

Why aren't they allies of actual women who are victims of rape, DV, FGM, prostitution, porn, murdered by their partners? That's where my compassion goes. All of it.

So no, Benny. Just no. I will not be lectured by you or any man. I will not bow down.

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with.

This is the sort of beyond disgusting victim blaming shite that has resulted in women not wanting to share their spaces with the male bodied. When I was being pinned down and assaulted (by a total stranger, who suddenly appeared in what I thought was a safe space), I tried to scream, but guess what. Nothing. I was mouthing the word "help", but no sound came out. Blood ringing in my ears, pretty much frozen. It's a common reaction, apparently, and one used against women in courtrooms (why didn't your scream, why didn't you fight back).

I'm a swimmer, my daughter is a regional level swimmer. Have you spent any time at a pool during a gala? Or just a usual, every day swim session for that matter, maybe a day when the kids have swim classes? Do you know where the coaches are? They are pool side, which is incredibly noisy. Where people are yelling, shouting support (both in galleries and poolside), There's often music playing and klaxons. The water is incredibly noisy during races. Use your imagination, Benny. Do you think anyone would distinguish a scream in a changing room over those sounds?

robin

Where is the Cecilia Dhejne quote from, please?

I'm not sure why anyone would want to divide the study into two parts. Sure, if you ignore that bits you don't like you will get the answer you want.

Benny10

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons
Benny10 currently when my 11 yr old daughter is getting changed after swimming (not currently I suppose but normal times!) in the large comunal women’s changing room if a male person walks in the girls would I hope be able to scream & their coaches sure as hell would chuck out any male they spotted going into the girls changing, management would help them.
Under self ID that male just says (beard, erect penis & all) I’m a woman you bigots. And my daughter & her team mates are; watched by a male without their consent & he can expose himself to them OR they lose out on the sport they love.

That’s the tip of the iceberg. Vulnerable women in prison locked up with abusive males - it’s all ready happening sad

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with. There's been some good points made on here. But everyone on both sides of this focuses on the extreme exceptions to the rule rather than the vast majority who are the people actually living this who want to harm no one or take advantage of no one it becomes so emotionally charged

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

Other people have addressed your “just scream” point & I’m please to read that you have thought more due to the responses. (Please consider that my daughter is slooooow getting ready & may be the last one of her team getting dressed as the male person walks in - screaming might put her in danger, that’s why one biological response to danger/fear is freezing.)

Ultimately I want you to understand that my daughter does NOT CONSENT to being seen in a state of undress by a strange male & she does NOT CONSENT to seeing his naked body.

Women DO NOT CONSENT- why is that not enough?

Good luck with your campaign for third/mixed sex spaces - I’ll support you

In a park it would be indecent exposure

(Sorry, the post I quoted was WAY back. But I could not read further after being told how vulnerable these people are.)

@Lamahaha

Because a man who feels like a woman and wishes to identify as one is often vulnerable in the way a woman is to sexual assault. If someone is transitioning it's because they feel like a woman. The online commentary on this issue has overlooked why they are doing it, not to hurt anyone but to live the way they want to live.

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"? How can you know what it "feels" like to be a woman? You can only know what "feeling" like a woman is if you have actually lived in a woman's body and actually, you know, EXPERIENCED the things that having a woman's body brings. Which is a bit more than "deciding what to wear each morning".

I'm an extremely mild-tempered, soft-spoken woman who doesn't even use swear words and who has never once yelled at anyone -- ever! But this nonsense has tried me to my very limits. These people have NO IDEA what it is to be a woman, and their "hurt feelings" means absolutely nothing to me. I am not going to #bekind.

I have lived all my life in not only a female body but a black female body and I have never once complained to anyone about what I've gone through and trust me, I know all about hurt feelings. But I didn't go whingeing to everyone or tried to police anyone's racist or sexist thoughts, and wallowed in and nursed my poor hurt feelings or expected anyone else to wallow in and nurse them, because, you know, I had a life to live and I saw my feelings as something I could and would get over, and I worked at myself and matured and grew strong and just got on with being and doing my best and raising my family and doing my work. And transwomen whinging publicly about being vulnerable and oppressed and wanting their hurt feelings pandered to leaves me stone cold. And I am usually a very warm and embracing person but I have reached the limit of my compassion through observing this absolute shitshow.

And I cannot believe that there are women, self-described "trans allies", who care more about the hurt feelings of men demanding the right to share loos and showers and changing rooms and sports with women because of hurt feelings. No, just no.

Why aren't they allies of actual women who are victims of rape, DV, FGM, prostitution, porn, murdered by their partners? That's where my compassion goes. All of it.

So no, Benny. Just no. I will not be lectured by you or any man. I will not bow down.

YES. A million times YES 👏🏼

@Lamahaha

Because a man who feels like a woman and wishes to identify as one is often vulnerable in the way a woman is to sexual assault. If someone is transitioning it's because they feel like a woman. The online commentary on this issue has overlooked why they are doing it, not to hurt anyone but to live the way they want to live.

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"? How can you know what it "feels" like to be a woman? You can only know what "feeling" like a woman is if you have actually lived in a woman's body and actually, you know, EXPERIENCED the things that having a woman's body brings. Which is a bit more than "deciding what to wear each morning".

I'm an extremely mild-tempered, soft-spoken woman who doesn't even use swear words and who has never once yelled at anyone -- ever! But this nonsense has tried me to my very limits. These people have NO IDEA what it is to be a woman, and their "hurt feelings" means absolutely nothing to me. I am not going to #bekind.

I have lived all my life in not only a female body but a black female body and I have never once complained to anyone about what I've gone through and trust me, I know all about hurt feelings. But I didn't go whingeing to everyone or tried to police anyone's racist or sexist thoughts, and wallowed in and nursed my poor hurt feelings or expected anyone else to wallow in and nurse them, because, you know, I had a life to live and I saw my feelings as something I could and would get over, and I worked at myself and matured and grew strong and just got on with being and doing my best and raising my family and doing my work. And transwomen whinging publicly about being vulnerable and oppressed and wanting their hurt feelings pandered to leaves me stone cold. And I am usually a very warm and embracing person but I have reached the limit of my compassion through observing this absolute shitshow.

And I cannot believe that there are women, self-described "trans allies", who care more about the hurt feelings of men demanding the right to share loos and showers and changing rooms and sports with women because of hurt feelings. No, just no.

Why aren't they allies of actual women who are victims of rape, DV, FGM, prostitution, porn, murdered by their partners? That's where my compassion goes. All of it.

So no, Benny. Just no. I will not be lectured by you or any man. I will not bow down.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I was going to post but this nails it for me.

robin can't find the sentence you quote. Found this while looking though:

Criminal activity, particularly violent crime, is much more common among men than women in the general population. A previous study of all applications for sex reassignment in Sweden up to 1992 found that 9.7% of male-to-female and 6.1% of female-to-male applicants had been prosecuted for a crime.[33] Crime after sex reassignment, however, has not previously been studied. In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females. By contrast, female-to-males were at a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls and did not differ from male controls, which suggests increased crime proneness in female-to-males after sex reassignment.