Stephen King retweets JKR

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

A Dworkin quote.

Most TW are straight men 🤦🏻‍♀️

Why such impassioned opposition against trans people when they are the vulnerable the majority of the time? Just don't get it, straight men are far more of a threat.

Could you please define 'trans person' here please?

98% of sexual offences are carried out by males. For this reason we have sex segregated spaces and people generally don't have a problem with this. Men as a class are a high risk group and women as a class are a low risk group. It is for this reason that my DH for example, who is a wonderful man and not a threat to women, is not allowed in female spaces. Because he is of the class that is a threat to women, and women may not feel safe in his presence because they don't know he isn't a threat. And also, some women are just not comfortable being vulnerable around males. And everyone is fine with this, as they should be.

So what I want to know, and what no one can ever seem to answer, is at what point does a male who 'identifies as female' come out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female? Is it full SRS? Top surgery? Hormones? Wearing a dress? Long hair? Makeup? Or is is simply if they declare themselves a woman? And if it is the last then can you not see a problem with that, that is could be abused? Where is the line? How are women supposed to know who the 'genuine transwomen' are and who might not be?

Planet Fitness. Turned out the male in question had a history of discussing his perversions online and had a fetish for listening to women urinate, so the woman’s pervert radar was spot on. No matter. She was the one barred.
Benny, you have no idea. Absolutely no idea. I hope you will go away from this conversation having learned something.

Reading through this is so depressing. Benny appreciate your input and I’m sure you’re a well meaning person, but welcome to terfdom mate. I’ve seen this so much especially on Twitter, people arguing what they think are the opposite points to gender critical women but are actually just saying the same shit that we’ve been getting rape threats for. It just feels so demoralising that people actually have no idea what’s going on under the new Trans regime but are coming along to try and educate us out of our transphobia.

Most of the people on this board are supportive of trans people and trans rights. We’re just doing what you are doing and trying to come up with solutions that don’t compromise our own rights and safety. Unfortunately this is not allowed at all according to TRAs as any distinction made between transwomen and biological women is hateful.

Why such impassioned opposition against trans people when they are the vulnerable the majority of the time?

Have you given any thought to vulnerable women who don't want men in women's spaces?
Seriously, who gave you the idea that it's for men to decide which of you get to use women's spaces?

@SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito

I looked through that and yes there are definitely people who are trans who are predatory and maybe even a tiny amount of predators who would pretend to be trans to get access to victims. But you can't paint them all with the same brush

@ChurchOfWokeApostate

Just don't get it, straight men are far more of a threat

Statistically they’re the same level of threat.

I’d love to see your evidence that they’re less of a threat than straight men.

Drums nails whilst patiently waiting

Can you link to these statistics that say they are the same level of threat?

But just like to say I have had my mind changed somewhat tonight for what it's worth. Seems to be an incredibly polarised issue now though unfortunately with few people looking to accommodate or compromise on either side of the argument

Benny, the point is that what the people who are predatory all have in common is that they are MALE. As we can't tell which males are predatory and which aren't on first glance, we want to be able to have certain spaces in which no males are allowed.

As a pp said upthread:

Could you please define 'trans person' here please?

98% of sexual offences are carried out by males. For this reason we have sex segregated spaces and people generally don't have a problem with this. Men as a class are a high risk group and women as a class are a low risk group. It is for this reason that my DH for example, who is a wonderful man and not a threat to women, is not allowed in female spaces. Because he is of the class that is a threat to women, and women may not feel safe in his presence because they don't know he isn't a threat. And also, some women are just not comfortable being vulnerable around males. And everyone is fine with this, as they should be.

So what I want to know, and what no one can ever seem to answer, is at what point does a male who 'identifies as female' come out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female? Is it full SRS? Top surgery? Hormones? Wearing a dress? Long hair? Makeup? Or is is simply if they declare themselves a woman? And if it is the last then can you not see a problem with that, that is could be abused? Where is the line? How are women supposed to know who the 'genuine transwomen' are and who might not be?

@ChurchOfWokeApostate

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with

Fucking hell, do you realise you’re essentially telling sexual assault victims that they should have screamed louder so the attackers would be dealt with.

I mean, I’m sure that’s not how you meant it, but that is literally how it comes accross

Jesus christ I'm really not saying that lol

"Why such impassioned opposition against trans people when they are the vulnerable the majority of the time?"

medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d
The vulnerability just jumps right out at you.

But what do they all have in common, Benny?

@robin1984

Ah, that's the thing. We (i.e. the GC "community", who have a very wide range of views and beliefs) are not "against" trans people. We are "for" protecting women's rights.

I couldn't give a toss what anyone wears, presents as or calls themself. Unless it cuts across a right that I and/or other women and girls have. That's where it gets ugly. The ditches I will die in are as follows:

Teenage girls should never be expected to accommodate a male-bodied person in spaces that are reserved for them. Puberty and teenagerdom are quite hideous enough, and one is quite self-conscious enough, without that.

Women's sports should only ever be for natal women. Hannah Mouncey, Rachel McKinnon, CeCe Telfer are, in my opinion, interlopers and cheats.

Women's refuges have to be for natal women only. Those women are fleeing male violence and they have a right to a space where they are guaranteed not to encounter male-bodied people. Transwomen and transmen need separate spaces.

All-women shortlists and awards should only be open to natal women. They have been established to counter the massive discrimination against women in public life and to open them to people who have been subject early in life to male socialisation and assumptions of entitlement is wrong.

Trans rights are human rights. Women's rights are human rights, too. Sometimes there are conflicts between the two. Those conflicts may need to be resolved in court. The solution is not that women's rights should always cede to trans rights.

And yes obviously we know that it is men who are the threat. This is the whole point. Self-ID will enable predatory men to do what they do best which is to prey upon women. It’s already happening.

I looked through that and yes there are definitely people who are trans who are predatory and maybe even a tiny amount of predators who would pretend to be trans to get access to victims. But you can't paint them all with the same brush

But if we are essentially opening up women's single sex spaces to any man who wants to access them (which is what self id means, and is what Stonewall is campaigning for - the end of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act) then how are we supposed to know who are the predators and who are the genuine trans people?

Single sex spaces are all about tarring all people (ie men) with the same brush. As I said, my DH is not a threat to women, but he is not allowed in women's single sex spaces.

Go Steve! 🙌

Robin1984

The same crime rate is linked here: twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1271526780961259520?s=20

I do love the illogicality of saying you can't paint all transwomen with the same brush, because the problem is straight males. Is the next stage telling us we can't paint all straight males with the same brush?

Because either way we have a group of males which we rightly are able to exclude from certain things.

Can you link to these statistics that say they are the same level of threat?

Can you please link to any statistics that say they're not? Null hypothesis is that transwomen are just as violent as other males. Women here can certainly link to statistics that show that transwomen are massively more violent than women, but I'm sure you'll agree that the burden of proof should be on those who want to relax safeguarding standards. Please find me any study anywhere, disputed or otherwise, that purports to disprove the null hypothesis that transwomen are just as violent as any other adult males.

@Highperbolay

Why such impassioned opposition against trans people when they are the vulnerable the majority of the time? Just don't get it, straight men are far more of a threat.

Could you please define 'trans person' here please?

98% of sexual offences are carried out by males. For this reason we have sex segregated spaces and people generally don't have a problem with this. Men as a class are a high risk group and women as a class are a low risk group. It is for this reason that my DH for example, who is a wonderful man and not a threat to women, is not allowed in female spaces. Because he is of the class that is a threat to women, and women may not feel safe in his presence because they don't know he isn't a threat. And also, some women are just not comfortable being vulnerable around males. And everyone is fine with this, as they should be.

So what I want to know, and what no one can ever seem to answer, is at what point does a male who 'identifies as female' come out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female? Is it full SRS? Top surgery? Hormones? Wearing a dress? Long hair? Makeup? Or is is simply if they declare themselves a woman? And if it is the last then can you not see a problem with that, that is could be abused? Where is the line? How are women supposed to know who the 'genuine transwomen' are and who might not be?

👏 👏 👏

@robin1984

I have read through some of those replies, and i'm concerned about some of the voices cited. The 'intellectual dark web' are not credible academics, they are mainly grifters rebadging old conservative ideas about various inequality being due to some natural order of things, they are certainly not allies to feminism. On the other MN thread, someone cites the quilette, they are pro-eugenics and defend race science. I am not very comfortable if gender critical ideas sits well with those people.

So out of the twitter thread, you've picked out one comment that you disagree with about the 'intellectual dark web' and dismissed the rest of the thread on that basis. Out of all the posts and links on the MN thread you've picked one link which you don't like because of the site it's on (not because of the article itself, about which you make no comment) and dismissed all the other posts and links on that basis.

I thought you were genuinely looking for information, when what you were really looking for was an excuse to stay in your own little echo chamber and not venture out in case you came across some information which clashed with your world view and might make you doubt whether what you believe is right.

If you decide you do want to learn, you need to get out of your echo chamber. Think for yourself. Make your own decisions about what is right. Sometimes you will strongly disagree with people on some issues but agree with them on others. I don't think there's another person on the planet with whom I'd agree about absolutely everything.

BTW what's your evidence that Quillette 'are pro eugenics and defend race science'? I only know of them as a platform for free speech.

[quote MilleniumHallsWalledGarden]Robin1984

The same crime rate is linked here: twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1271526780961259520?s=20[/quote]
from the researcher

"The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

Benny you seem like a good guy to me. You are arguing politely, and you are reading what people write to you - it amazing how often people don't.

You've suggested trans ID cards and third spaces. I think most people here would agree with that, but according to Stonewall and other trans authorities this will not do - it's acceptance without exception, TWAW with literally no difference at all between them and what they call 'cis' women (even though everyone in the world - including them - knows this isn't true).
What I hope you realise from contributing here is that feminists are not trans-haters, that they hope trans people find solutions to their problems. What they are not prepared to do is compromise women's safety even a tiny little bit in order to validate and accommodate transwomen. It's not women's duty to help men who wish they were women.

Oh Benny.
You really think the majority of TW are not straight?
Oh dear.

I would love to accommodate and compromise. There’s no compromise in ‘acceptance without exception’. There’s no way to even voice our concerns without being labelled bigots and threatened with sexual violence.

Most people in the real world have absolutely no idea what the new trans activism is all about. They hear oh JKR said transwomen aren’t women she must be using the wrong pronouns and being derogatory or saying people can’t change their gender, that’s terrible.

No it’s not that at all, she’s using all the right pronouns, being very respectful and supportive of people identifying in whatever way they wish but she has committed the heinous crime of stating the scientific fact that transwomen can’t change their biological sex and women shouldn’t be being fired from their jobs for saying so.

TWANW was never meant to be used to belittle or degrade anyone. It has come about as a counter argument to TWAW which is shoved down the throats of anyone who raises a concern to immediately shut down the argument. We can’t talk about our rights as women if we aren’t allowed to make any differentiation at all between us and TW.