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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
dianebrewster · 27/06/2020 15:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Skyliner001 · 27/06/2020 15:21

@JohnnyW2001

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to *@glinner*'s post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 😊
Datun · 27/06/2020 15:24

God it's tedious.

Why do so many men think that the women here aren't endocrinologists, doctors, surgeons, scientists, physicists, statisticians or psychologists?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's ... sexism.

And you are the hundredth person this week to make that mistake.

🙄

jewel1968 · 27/06/2020 15:24

I am no scientist but assuming this is correct and male bodies may have female brains - what difference does that make. It only becomes a problem because of society and culture and stereotypes of what it means to be male or female.

Kit19 · 27/06/2020 15:25

Now now you know mummy’s can’t have science brains 😆😆

BaronessWrongCrowd · 27/06/2020 15:25

I shall come to tell you why you silly women are wrong. Hmm

Datun · 27/06/2020 15:26

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science.

And just to be clear, women are still saying no to men in their spaces. I hope that helps.

No.

teawamutu · 27/06/2020 15:27

Dodgy science, check.

Appeals to be kind, check.

'right side of history', check.

Do you have a beard by any chance, Johnny? I only need one more for HOUSE!

sadlandlonely2020 · 27/06/2020 15:27

what you fail to understand sweetie

Welcome to mumsnet. Put forward another point of view that isn't trans exclusionary and someone patronises you. Calling someone sweetie sounds very professional as scientist, doctor, physiologist, teacher or lecture.

Gingerkittykat · 27/06/2020 15:28

I think those who believe there are pink and blue brains, as well as those who think there are no meaningful evidence of a gendered brain, will be able to find articles and science to back up their claims.

The fact that you used the meaningless phrase 'The right side of history' shows that you very much have an agenda to push.

terryleather · 27/06/2020 15:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Madvixen · 27/06/2020 15:29

Females fought for years to remove the regressive idea of a 'woman's brain' which had served to exclude us from many aspects of life. How dare you come on here and try and tell us that that was all pointless.

AskDan · 27/06/2020 15:29

I dont mean to be personal Johny, but do you have a beard? It just seems that you might.

WineGinBrewCake

(I am adding emojis because this seems to be protocol now).

Skyliner001 · 27/06/2020 15:29

@sadlandlonely2020

what you fail to understand sweetie

Welcome to mumsnet. Put forward another point of view that isn't trans exclusionary and someone patronises you. Calling someone sweetie sounds very professional as scientist, doctor, physiologist, teacher or lecture.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻😊
TedsFederationRep · 27/06/2020 15:29

Don't you just know it's the weekend again? 🙄

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 15:30

I am no scientist but assuming this is correct and male bodies may have female brains - what difference does that make. It only becomes a problem because of society and culture and stereotypes of what it means to be male or female.

Yep.
Consider for one brief moment, OP - bearing in mind you're posting on a parenting forum, which might give you a clue - what did the two sexes evolve for?

PronounssheRa · 27/06/2020 15:31

Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

Do you really believe this ? That there are girl brains and boy brains.

This is not only wrong but deeply offensive to women. It's this nonsense that prevented women having the vote, prevented women from being able to go to university.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 27/06/2020 15:31
Bear
Datun · 27/06/2020 15:32

Calling someone sweetie sounds very professional as scientist, doctor, physiologist, teacher or lecture.

I'm going to take a wild stab, again, and say it wasn't meant to sound 'professional'. 🤣

Tut tut, naughty women not characterising themselves correctly.

And the answer is still no.

FantaOra · 27/06/2020 15:34

Right side of history? History is the past side, you can only ever be on one side of it, the fucking present.

If you are unable to conclude your men with female typical traits post with anything other than a dreary meaningless cliché then don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

How desperate must all the glinner haters be to have to lower themselves to talk to the "female traits" on mumsnet, what a comedown for them.

Hahahaha

PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 27/06/2020 15:35

Even if that weren't gibberish, it would be irrelevant. We divide people by their sexed bodies for stuff like sports & jails.

Because one type of body is bigger, stronger, & frankly more dangerous than the other type.

My brain isn't especially 'female', I don't think. But my body is, & that makes me a woman.

Carriemac · 27/06/2020 15:36

Another science phd here , with my feminine little brain. I understand biology though , and am a big fan of Gilner.

onalongsabbatical · 27/06/2020 15:37

Ohhh goody, nothing I like better than dragging out the biscuits.

The Glinner thing
The Glinner thing
The Glinner thing
jellyfrizz · 27/06/2020 15:37

Yes, male and female brains ARE different. There’s an easy way to observe this :-
A male brain triggers male puberty, a female brain triggers female puberty.

teawamutu · 27/06/2020 15:37

If the science is so settled and overwhelming, why do we need to be kind?

And how can a brain with sex chromosomes encoded in every single cell belong to the opposite sex?

And even if it does, does that remove the penis?

And even if it did, do women not get a say about their spaces?

Maybe you need to do a bit of thinking.

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