The Glinner thing

[JohnnyW2001]

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

I doubt jonny will be back, not now we have been educated.

Nope, looked all over. Cant find my higher self.
Oh dear. What can this pretty little laydee with her pink brain do? How can this feeble woman ever manage.

Hold up people.

A MAN HAS ARRIVED TO EXPLAIN OUR WRONG THINK.
Blessed be the menz.

You're still doing it 🤣*

At point in your life did you think that women were there to fulfil some kind of service on demand for you, when given the, um 'opportunity'.

I'm willing to bet you don't even know your doing it.

And the answer is still no.*

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it.

lol @Datun is quite right, I didn't have my lecturer / PhD hat on when I said "sweetie" I had my mummy hat on talking to the toddler who was talking bollocks ......

I think I might have a male brain in my female body, can I get a pay rise?

I took part in a psychology experiment once.

Apparently my brain shows male characteristics. I have never, ever “felt” like a man.

What is a “female traited brain” anyway. Could it just be someone who has an aptitude or preference for “female” things? And what makes those things female? Society...

There can be no female/male traited brain. If we changed societys perception of gender, and decided men liked art and make up, would the brain also switch gender?

Don't you just know it's the weekend again?

Weekend and no school for weeks. It's the longest half term ever.

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it.

Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.

Here's a few for you to Google

OMG the manplaining It's actually hilarious. Do these idiots REALLY think gender critical women who question the TRA narrative haven't actually done any research?

BTW the 'science' you quoted about 'lady brain' has already been debunked, most of it is words and sentences are cherry picked from research papers, Research papers that actually say the complete opposite.

Thanks for your input but still no from the women.

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it

Shit is this another of those mental load things? We have to repeatedly educate anyone who says so?

Why is this our job? You can obviously read and there are (as has been helpfully pointed out previously) kajillions of threads on fwr about this subject and many more. Feel free to read any.

Funny how the "listening, compassion and empathy" is always a one way street for women. We must listen and empathise with any man who demands access to our sports, our awards, our places where we undress and are vulnerable, our naive and impressionable children no matter what risks they pose.

But listening to the experiences, feelings and wishes of women is never on the agenda. Funny that.

Blueblue, men used to wear heels for horse riding. And blue was for girls in Victorian times, while pink was a milder red, for little boys.
So obviously liking to wear pink and high heels is very male-brained!

Just testing.

“a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

How does ‘having a female brain’ in a male body (or vice versa) mean it’s ‘possible to be born in the wrong body’?

It’s not your body that is wrong. It is restrictive attitudes to gender and ‘rules’ of what it means to be male or female that make your experience in the world uncomfortable, leading to dysphoria.

If we all (society) gave up giving a crap about what a ‘female brain’ or ‘innate essence of gender’ was, everyone would be happier.

Dress, do, be, live however pleases you. Leave the law alone and stop trespassing on language to make it fit a minority whose feelings are no more or less important than anyone else’s.

Science 🤣🤣

OP you are giving me a much needed laugh today. Thank you.

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

So men can have brains that look like women's brains? And vice versa?
Gosh, it's enough to make you conclude that there's no such thing as a clear distinction between man-brains or lady-brains!

Men are on average taller than women. Do you think a tall woman is a man?

I just can't get my head around the lack of self awareness of the Wrong Side of History crowd. If women are losing this fight, it reflects the structural sexism and misogyny in our society. That you are reinforcing by coming here to talk over us in a female centred space.

Trans activism is a male rights movement, supported by lots of other males without a thought for women and girls. There are always women who calculate that their best option is to go with what the men say, they have done it throughout history.

It may amaze you, but in this little corner of the internet lots of us women here are saying no. We're not interested in your epic mansplain and your self-important righteousness. We have rights, and we're not giving them up without a fight.

Another little female brain here with a PhD in biochemistry.

So I think I get science.

I don't want self ID to result in a situation in which pretty much any predatory bloke out there could gain free pass into women's and girls places by stating that they are a woman. And women being silenced to question their entry into such places for the fear of being prosecuted for hate speech.

The trans issue is complex and I have a lot of sympathy for people who suffer with understanding their gender identity, whatever the root cause may be. My red line however is and will remain that legislation in this area should not result in unintended consequences that threaten the safety of women and girls.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again.

Don't be so dimwitted. The fact that there may be people whose brains don't conform to the absolute norm for their sex doesn't mean they have been 'born in the wrong body'. Brains don't get allocated to a body. They are not separate from the body, they are part of it.

If my cat likes to bury bones and chase sticks, does that mean its brain was accidentally put into a dog? Even if its brain somehow displayed a few biological similarities to a dog's brain, it still wouldn't mean it was 'meant' to be a dog (or could ever become one).

You only get one body and one brain. They aren't mix and match!

Oooo! I just found the celeriac picture! I won't use it, as that might not be considered "kind".

Such a stupid shit argument that is very easily demolished:

As others have already pointed out each and every cell in a woman's body has two X chromosomes and each and every cell in a man's body has an X and a Y. So a mans brain cells are chromosomally male ie all men have a male brain.

This idea about female brain in a male body fails to take any account of how that brain and body developed all from one original cell. It's not some assembly line where the wrong brain gets added at the end!

If there really were such clear and obvious differences between male and female brains then we wouldn't need bloody self ID would we? Just get in the scanner and check 'oh dear looks you have a bad case of lady brain sir. Off to the gender reassignment clinic for you'

FFS

I did not need my science PhD or my medical degree to understand these matters by the way although I do have one of each.

i do think you came here to offer a reasoned debate and i want to pay you the same courtesy. Here is my take on this:

i very much believe in the idea of feeling as though you are born in the wrong body - but i am not at all convinced by the science of 'male brain, female brain.' However, i am a Christian, and the very cornerstone of our faith is the idea of an essence of self being separate from the physical body - a soul, that lives on in heaven after we die...

DON'T GO!!!!

however, i do not see why that would necessarily manifest itself as male/ female identities. I think about what would have happened had i been born into a male body - i think i may have been gay, as i am married to a lovely man, but also, i may have been a straight man as i think i have a bisexual side i have never explored (but i am fine with that.)

I love martial arts and action movies, i do kickboxing; i would still do that in a male body. I never wear make up or dresses, but i do like jewellery - yup, can still be a man. I love children despite not having any myself - yup, that describes my husband too so definitely still something that can be attributed to a man.....

However, in a man's body i might have walked through life very differently. Knowing that i was physically more powerful than over half of the population. confident that society would put me first, my needs before others, that as a man i would be more likely to succeed. I may even have had children, if i had found a wife willing to have them for me.

So i am sorry, but your argument does not hold up. What about all the women with 'men's brains' who are perfectly happy in their physical self and vice versa this could definitely be me! I don't think it is down to men's brain's and ladies brains, but down to society, where it puts us according to our role in reproduction and physical abilities, that makes us unhappy with our physical selves.

Does that make sense?

So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And yes, even if such a distinction actually existed, this might make sense if those brains, and only those brains, were in the bodies of transgender people. OP is saying you'd be able to accurately diagnose someone as transgender or not by a specific brain type in a specific body type.
So they wouldn't be able to self-id.
Transphobic much, OP?