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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
NoSquirrels · 27/06/2020 16:12

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

It’s not though, is it? It’s not a ‘serious thread’ - OP hasn’t joined in. And it’s not an ‘important issue’ because male brain/female brain/wrong body is rubbish.

FreeKitties · 27/06/2020 16:13

Blessed be the menz

I love this !

Oh and dear OP

Women are under no obligation to ‘be kind’ to anyone.

Also, you can present as many ‘arguments’ as you like, but we still don’t want men in our spaces. Now be a dear and fuck off.

stillathing · 27/06/2020 16:13

Last time I checked rapists used their dicks and superior physical strength whilst benefitting from a patriarchal society that fails to adequately prosecute. Not their brains.

JackiF · 27/06/2020 16:14

What a load of codswallop you talk OP. Evidently, someone who merely identifies as a scientist. You don't understand what you are talking about.

Scanning Dead Salmon in fMRI Machine Highlights Risk of Red Herrings

Some years ago, Dr.Craig Bennett bought a dead Atlantic Salmon, put it in the fMRI machine, showed it pictures of humans in social situations and asked the dead salmon what emotions it thought they displayed. www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/
"When they got around to analyzing the voxel (think: 3-D or "volumetric" pixel) data, the voxels representing the area where the salmon's tiny brain sat showed evidence of activity. In the fMRI scan, it looked like the dead salmon was actually thinking about the pictures it had been shown."

The OP appears to think he can prove anything if he claims it was in a brain scan.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 16:14

@lyndseylou43

Thanks for your input but still no from the women.
It's a HELL NO from me OP.

By the way, do you have a beard?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/06/2020 16:15

i do wonder what the OPs of threads like this thing they're going to achieve

can they seriously believe that if they explain things to me calmly and carefully I'll suddenly be delighted about the prospect of having a poo in the next cubical to my male boss at work?

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 16:16

Any differences that are actually observed in scanning studies will indeed be due to plasticity ie adaptations to the environment including the patriarchal environment.

As for 'Monkeys don't have society' PMSL at this. Monkeys have very clear dominance relationships and they definitely do have a social order that would influence brain plasticity.

If indeed there is any study showing male female differences at 24h (mind boggles at how such a study would be ethically or practically conducted on newborns) then it's still subject to environment ie intrauterine environment eg a female fetus and a male fetus produce different hormone levels in utero.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 16:17

Telling children that they might have been 'born into the wrong body' is both scientifically illiterate and dangerous. It endangers their mental wellbeing, physical health and fertility. Do you honestly think it's a good idea that a girl who doesn't happily fit into current gender stereotypes, or who is uncomfortable with her developing body and resulting objectification, may be told that the problem is with her body and that it can and should be fixed?

There are many sad young women now realising that they've been sold this dangerous lie by people who should have protected them, and are now permanently mutilated and/or sterile. When all the time there was nothing wrong with either their body or their brain, it was our gendered, sexist society that needed fixing.

DeRigueurMortis · 27/06/2020 16:20

*This idea about female brain in a male body fails to take any account of how that brain and body developed all from one original cell. It's not some assembly line where the wrong brain gets added at the end!

If there really were such clear and obvious differences between male and female brains then we wouldn't need bloody self ID would we? Just get in the scanner and check 'oh dear looks you have a bad case of lady brain sir. Off to the gender reassignment clinic for you'*

This. Exactly this.

We are all born in the body that was dictated by our conception.

The concept of a lady brain is no different to the argument that I was born in the wrong body because my eyes are green and I feel they should have been blue or that I should have been 5 inches taller.

You come here OP and try to spin pseudo science to us on the assumption that we are incapable of seeing it for what it is, whilst failing yourself to use the correct terminology (brain elasticity FFS) and thus demonstrating you lack a fundamental understanding of the subject matter your trying to "educate" us about.

How patronising....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:21

I'm not completely uneducated in this science myself but I'm especially confident in the experience and ability of my fellow Mumsnetters who are absolutely going to make this patronising fellow look very silly indeed by the end of this thread.

LillianBland · 27/06/2020 16:23

New poster starts a bullshite thread and gets stance support from other new poster I’ve never ever seen that happen before on Mumsnet, Honestly. Now, excuse while I give my head a shake, so I can roll my eyes back to the front of my head.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/06/2020 16:24

ScrimpshawTheSecond brilliant deployment of the Bear

Datun · 27/06/2020 16:24

@sadlandlonely2020

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

*Sad+. the topic in hand on this thread is someone, who I'm assuming is male is coming along and telling us that you can have such a thing as a female brain in a male body.

This is not true. And many women here have looked at every single study that he could possibly give them, for the best part of 6 odd years.

Any brain in a male body is a male brain, by definition.

What this person is trying to achieve is to say that sex is determined by your brain, not your biological reproductive potential.

Which would then lead to the erroneous conclusion that men should be allowed into women's spaces. On the basis of their brain.

When men, however they identify, stop committing 98% of all sex crimes, 90% of all violent crimes, and almost all other crime, then we can talk.

When the OP on this thread hangs their head in shame because 120 million female babies and girls have gone missing, due to their lower status based on their biology, not their bloody mythical gender identity, then we can talk.

These boards have been talking about this issue including all the numerous studies, for the best part of six or eight years.

We could all write a bloody thesis on it.

The only reason new mansplainers are popping up is because we are actually, finally getting somewhere.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/06/2020 16:25

For OP, and anyone really...

I’m as thick as pig shit. No degrees, not a scientist or biologist, or infact even a mom or mum.

But you did say “To be brief...”

And you know what, I already knew that was a lying lie because men are bombastic.

Right up until they meet an intellect they weren’t expecting where reverse ferret (or in this case dump and run) are employed.

So you’re just a noisey trouser trumpet and I’ll be moving along.

Thanks for the smell.

InAPickleGodDamn · 27/06/2020 16:26

I'm not a scientist but I have worked in MH for over 20 years (not in gender clinics).

I don't think the young males on the Autistic spectrum I know who want to be female because they seem to think it will stop them having Autism, have 'female' brains.

Nor do I think the young women who have been traumatised by male sexual violence and think 'becoming' a man will keep them safe have 'male' brains.

And i'm talking about people approved for GR including hormones and irreversible surgery after very brief assessments.

VickyEadieofThigh · 27/06/2020 16:26

What Datun said.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 27/06/2020 16:26

@sadlandlonely2020

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

Welcome to MN. This is FWR and we don't have to be nice or kind here, or indeed, professional. Nor do we have to take ploppers who post debunked pseudo-science as fact seriously.

The answer from women remains 'no'.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 16:27

@ItsLateHumpty

For OP, and anyone really...

I’m as thick as pig shit. No degrees, not a scientist or biologist, or infact even a mom or mum.

But you did say “To be brief...”

And you know what, I already knew that was a lying lie because men are bombastic.

Right up until they meet an intellect they weren’t expecting where reverse ferret (or in this case dump and run) are employed.

So you’re just a noisey trouser trumpet and I’ll be moving along.

Thanks for the smell.

Grin
WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo · 27/06/2020 16:27

Mumsnet is really getting slammed with MRA trolls today isnt it.

Collidascope · 27/06/2020 16:27

@AyeRobot

Does that mean that brain scans could be done before issuing GRCs? Or maybe before issuing birth certificates?

That would resolve a lot of the current tensions, I would have thought.

Yeah, that was my thought too. No need for self ID if brain scans can determine a male or female brain, is there? I wonder what brain all the non-binary people have.
FantaOra · 27/06/2020 16:29

Does anyone remember the programme channel 4 made for Bergdorf a couple of years ago? There was footage of the Bristol meeting at the JamJar in Bristol which was surrounded and occupied by angry people and Venice Allen was shown in a Cafe explaining to a she didn't agree men could change sex to a disappointed bergdorf.

Bergdorf went off to a clinic in Germany that scanned brains for supposed traits, and of course the result was pretty feeble. There is a desperate need for people to believe this and there are therefore people that will sell their research and scan services in a way that both exploits and bolsters this theory.

It's all a bit sad really.

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2020 16:31

Brains can have a sex but not sex organs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:32

Does anyone remember the programme channel 4 made for Bergdorf a couple of years ago?

I do. Quite a watch.

LillianBland · 27/06/2020 16:35

I wonder what brain all the non-binary people have.

I’m going to assume a purple brain if a colour chart is anything to by and men have blue brains, while ladies have pink. 😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:36

Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Try it out for a change yourself. Women and girls deserve compassion and empathy too, or is that an alien notion to you?

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