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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
FizzyGreenWater · 27/06/2020 17:25

A male post in a male body if ever I saw one.

Go 'way Nige.

JackiF · 27/06/2020 17:26

And the next plopper please......

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 27/06/2020 17:30

It's not the brain that makes them male. It's the testosterone, coming from their big swinging balls hanging off their XY body.

I don't have any of that.

Even with my feeble lady brain I can tell the difference between a male and a female at 100 paces - and I see you just fine well.

merrymouse · 27/06/2020 17:39

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I think you need to do a bit more research and a bit more thinking. The science you are quoting is not mainstream or universally agreed. However, even if there were such a thing as a brain that was more common in females and a brain that was more common in men, it doesn't make any difference to sex.

50 years ago women who reached the height of 5'8" were judged to have the wrong height for a female and were given drugs to suppress their growth.

Now 5'8" is just a normal height for a woman.

Many traits are normal in men and women, even if they are rare.

However, women need specific rights and protections because of their sex, not their brains.

Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

I don't like the phrase 'right side of history', but you really should listen to your own advice about compassion and empathy.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/06/2020 17:42

This might be a good place for Sophie Scott’s excellent talk on brain sex.

vimeo.com/414833798

bluebluezoo · 27/06/2020 17:42

One of the very first ways I began to break the insidious social conditioning I had received AS A FEMALE

Mine was when I didn’t want to “put on a bit of lipstick” to brighten myself up going to the shop. Aged 15.

That’s when I realised make up didn’t actually make me look better, but rather made other people think I was attractive in a societally accepted way. It was other people that cared if I put on make up to fit in with a concept of femaleness.

I always find it interesting that the tw narrative, presumably defined by their female brains, always subscribes to the hair make up nails aspect of femininity...

merrymouse · 27/06/2020 17:49

The logical conclusion of the OP's argument is that its possible to test people's brains to find out whether they are really male or female. I don't think that leads anywhere good, and certainly not 'the right side of history'.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 17:50

@TeaAndStrumpets

Would the hypothetical genderbrain scan resemble a mammogram in any way?
It would look like a pair of bollocks.

Much like the opening post, in fact.

CharlieParley · 27/06/2020 17:53

Just wanted to add that I fully agree with those who reject the notion that any of us have an obligation to answer an OP who posts supposed evidence of one of the most damaging and enduring justifications for the oppression of women and girls - that we are wired differently than men, that so-called feminine traits are therefore hardwired into us, which in too many places in the world right now in this very moment that I write means that women and girls are treated as a lesser class of humans.

I don't generally hold with the view that in a forum like FWR anyone has any obligation to answer questions in a kind manner. Or answer them at all. Considering what the OP posted here, he or she got off lightly in my view.

And even if diane's comment was deleted, it was well deserved in my opinion. So thank you Datun and thank you ItsLateHumpty and all the others breaking with female socialization to express the disdain and sarcasm I feel too but far too often don't allow myself to show.

Oh and thank you JackiF for the Salmon study. What a find!

Michelleoftheresistance · 27/06/2020 17:55

Trans-exclusionary

Sigh.

To include TW in female only spaces is female exclusionary. There's no way around this, to give TW entry to single sex spaces will push out females from having any provision of any kind. What are we going to do with them?

If you believe in trans inclusion in single sex spaces, you believe in female exclusion.

There are third spaces that will work for trans people, and will give them the gender neutral/mixed sex space they want to turn female only spaces into, so what's the diff? TW won't allow there to be a third space for females only though.

What are you planning to do with those excluded, displaced females, oh kind and inclusive and socially just one?

Michelleoftheresistance · 27/06/2020 17:57

And do tell, because I'm baffled, why do you seriously expect female people to not mind about female-exclusionary politics or seek to protect the females at risk from them?

You seem to think those females are being stupid, or naughty or something.

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 17:59

Why did Dianne's post get deleted?
She didn't use any wrongspeak as far as I recall.
Are we not allowed to call out Mansplaining ploppers when they pop by?
Do we all have to be kind and not sarcastic now?

FantaOra · 27/06/2020 18:01

I was lectured with this lady brain nonsense so called settled science by the Labour Party LGBTQ committee. The one's representing the Labour Party viewpoint. The Labour Party have accepted this offensive garbage as fact.

Terrible.

Tianalia · 27/06/2020 18:06

🧔

OldeMagick · 27/06/2020 18:13

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history

Nah. We've done compassion and empathy and got shat on from a great height.

I don't see much of the above coming from transactivists towards women. In fact, I'd say the opposite's true. Now take your patronising, disingenuous attitude and bugger off back to Tumblr

YgritteSnow · 27/06/2020 18:14

Even a proven neurological condition like ADHD has no firm diagnostic brain scan.

My autistic child had a brain scan. They found nothing of note and yet he is indeed autistic amongst other significant additional needs.

I actually genuinely want to understand "The Science" and form my opinions from ALL the information not just what I prefer so I will take a look at your studies.

Still though, I do not want Male bodies in mine or my teenage DD's single wed spaces. No woman should ever have to see a penis or Male bodied person she has not chosen to, however their brain looks or functions. You'll be needing third spaces for those people so I suggest they start campaigning for them like women had to.

YgritteSnow · 27/06/2020 18:14

Sex not wed. Autocorrect WTF?!

Deltoids1 · 27/06/2020 18:15

I do wish the OP had arrived at the start of lockdown. I had much more time to answer ploppers then.

Furx · 27/06/2020 18:21

That’s when I realised make up didn’t actually make me look better, but rather made other people think I was attractive in a societally accepted way. It was other people that cared if I put on make up to fit in with a concept of femaleness

Yes, it’s,interesting, isn’t it. I’ve always though someone wearing lipstick looks... like someone in lipstick. Not intrinsically better or worse, just like they have Done a Thing.

There’s a lot of talk on the S&B boards how someone feels they ‘need‘ their makeup to look ok, or acceptable. I find that a bit disheartening tbh. Do Make-up if it’s your Thing, or dont do it. But please don’t feel compelled, just because you look at a lot of pictures of women in makeup.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 27/06/2020 18:21

and hopefully appealing to your higher self

My higher self says no.
Where's the compassion and empathy for the females who want to retain their sex based rights and single sex spaces?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/06/2020 18:31

I am not a scientist, I am a historian, and I take issue with this:

‘And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.‘

History has not shown us that at all. In answer to your single example of gay people I give you:
people who thought they were made of glass
People who believed they were possessed by demons
People who had the dancing malady and thought they couldn’t stop dancing.
Just for starters. None of these people were right.

I also would like to point out to you that at this point in time among certain groups claiming trans identity doesn’t open you up to persecution, it brings you status and attention . This is not true for many trans people who are genuinely discriminated against and suffer violence, but for an increasing number it is far from analogous with the experience of homosexuals at a time when it was illegal.

tldr · 27/06/2020 18:34

My higher self wants to retain single sex spaces.

Clymene · 27/06/2020 18:38

So, if some people have female brains in make bodies, which is what you appear to be arguing, then we can do a test surely? Is there such a test? If not, why not?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/06/2020 18:38

Still RTFT but I'm impatient and MN is making me cross today ...

Let's assume what your saying is correct.

I still do not want a human being with male physiology and all the strength and force advantages that brings, sharing a space either with me or my DD 11 when we may be undressed or vulnerable.

If you honestly think this statement is transphobic or other such bollocks then you have the problem, not me.

JemimaShore · 27/06/2020 18:41

It's always interesting that men will claim "pink brain/blue brain" - often as a way to denigrate women and tell them that their brains were made by nature and/or God to do the cleaning, and the caring, and all the P/T, low paid jobs. Propping up the subjugation & oppression of women using this sort of science is something feminism has been fighting for decades.

Added to that, TRAs, in just a few short years, have also started to tell us that male sex organs like the penis - can actually be female. They feel feminine, so their penises must be female! So now, not only are we fighting the "pink brain" mythology that attaches itself to women and women's rights, but we're fighting the so-called "female penis" in women's spaces as well. Just give us a break! We don't have pink brains, and we don't have penises.

Funny how the "science" quoted by men always seems to be detrimental to women, to be somehow putting us in our place, isn't it?

The answer is still NO. Humans born male cannot become women. No matter what their brain scan says.

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