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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
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NeutralJanet · 27/06/2020 15:38

Ok, so say the gendered brain science is correct, I have every sympathy for people who feel distress at the sex of the body they were born into and want to have surgeries in order to make their body resemble the opposite sex, it must be awful for them. I have no issue sharing female only spaces with transwomen who have had gender reassignment surgery and no longer have a penis. The problem is that these days apparently you don't need even the slightest bit of dysphoria to be transgender, many transwomen are vocal about having and keeping their "girl dick" so how does that fit into that narrative?

Rembrandt · 27/06/2020 15:38

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right.

You mean like being born as a girl in a world that sees girls and women as lesser beings?

Although in our case, of course, it's seen as something to be terminated rather than as "a malady to be cured". All those baby girls who were aborted or killed soon after birth because they had less value.

FlamingoAndJohn · 27/06/2020 15:39

So if there are indeed male and female brains then I can see that we are only a hop and a skip from telling women that their lady brain can’t cope with running big companies or voting.

What causes a male brain to be in a female body or vice versa?

Highperbolay · 27/06/2020 15:39

For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences.

For those who are unaware, ie you, it's not the elasticity of the brain, its the plasticity. I know you have scant disregard for the actual meaning of words, but if you are going to come on here and lecture us silly little Mums on important manly science stuff, the least you can do is use the correct terminology.

AyeRobot · 27/06/2020 15:39

Does that mean that brain scans could be done before issuing GRCs? Or maybe before issuing birth certificates?

That would resolve a lot of the current tensions, I would have thought.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 27/06/2020 15:40

Every cell with a nucleus in a male body is a male cell.

The brain in a male body is a male brain. They cannot ever be a female brain.

The fact that the human brain develops depending on the (often sexist) stimulation received and that gendered brains is stereotypical bullshit- not revolutionary on this board.

Gwynfluff · 27/06/2020 15:40

If you get male sexed bodies with ‘female’ brains and female sexed bodies with ‘male’ brains, isn’t that an indication that there aren’t different brains as it’s possible for either sex to have either type of brain!

And it doesn’t explain higher rates of seeking transition in teen years being FtM and yet in adults seems to be overwhelmingly MtF - wouldn’t there be a balance in both groups?

Bit like the regressive argument that females with autism have ‘male’ brains.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/06/2020 15:41

do we think @JohnnyW2001 will engage? they so rarely do, do they, the 'speaking as a man' posters

or they do engage and disgrace themselves by losing their shit. that's my favourite

i mean even if lady brains are a thing, so fucking what? every human on the planet has a sexed body and on the occasions when I'm vulnerable or partially dressed in shared spaces I don't want there to be any men there

it's not fucking hard

sadlandlonely2020 · 27/06/2020 15:41

Tut tut, naughty women not characterising themselves correctly.*

Tut tut naughty woman for having the opportunity to put an intelligent point across and deciding to take the low road.

Apileofballyhoo · 27/06/2020 15:41

Are you suggesting gender dysphoria should only be diagnosed by brain scanning, OP?

Gingernaut · 27/06/2020 15:42

Studies on brains of both sexes showed such mixed results that each subsequent study contradicts the last or fails to reproduce the results.

Men, women, homosexual, heterosexual, gender dysphoric - all produce different results, regardless of whether they are being treated with hormones or not.

Genetics, developmental influences, upbringing, mental illness, possible injuries and environment all have very subtle effects on brain matter and it simply isn't possible to diagnose gender dysphoria or any other such phenomena with brain scans.

Even a proven neurological condition like ADHD has no firm diagnostic brain scan.

Cecily75 · 27/06/2020 15:42

You know what, I don't care.

Male brains and female brains!? So what?

What about the rest of the human body? If you're unfortunate to be "born in the wrong body" then that's exactly what has happened, according to your beliefs and "science". Bad luck. Carry on and live your peaceful life as you choose.

That still does not mean that you can re-define womanhood and transgress my rights.

Becles · 27/06/2020 15:42

Not sure the best retort, but Leeds Spinners have a beautiful banner that sums up my thoughts.

The Glinner thing
FlamingoAndJohn · 27/06/2020 15:43

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right.

Like being female in a male dominated society?

CaraDune · 27/06/2020 15:43

@dianebrewster

what you fail to understand sweetie is that MANY off us on here FULLY understand the science, we ARE scientists, doctors, psychologists, teachers, lecturers - oh and many of us are also mothers, Adult human females who have given birth as only adult human females can.

my own PhD fully equips me for reading scientific papers. Your ramble is no scientific paper.

take your condescending little diatribe back to your man cave

What diane just said. And I too have a PhD in a science subject and nearly 2 decades of post-doctoral experience.

Just because OP wants to embrace a form of Lysenkoism doesn't mean the rest of us have to give up our critical faculties.

PleaseChooseAnother · 27/06/2020 15:43

If a certain type of brain has been observed to exist in a male body, surely that then makes it part of the range of male brains? And vice versa?

In the same way that males are on average 180cm tall and women 160cm tall (for example), a male being 150cm tall doesn't automatically make them a female height, just at the lower end of the range if male heights

PleaseChooseAnother · 27/06/2020 15:45

Sorry - I have mixed up males/ men and femLes/ women. Please read women above as females

FleetsumNJetsum · 27/06/2020 15:45

I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

>"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here

I believe there are rules about not starting a thread about another thread???

7Days · 27/06/2020 15:46

Womens rights came about as a correction against being the smaller weaker less violent half of humanity who bear the children

Nothing to do with brains.

Biology is real
Sometimes it matters
Shore up safeguarding

After that crack on and let's all live our best lives

EverardDigby · 27/06/2020 15:46

I think I might have a male brain in my female body, can I get a pay rise?

rabbitwoman · 27/06/2020 15:47

Actually, OP, thank you very much for that.

You have been polite and reasonable, and you have given me something to look into - I can't say it will change my mind, but I appreciate that you have entered into a debate rather than shouting and threatening. For once, something concrete to support the TWAW stance, even if, once I have looked into it, I don't change my mind.

Thank you....

IHeartSusanDey · 27/06/2020 15:48

OP your post is irrelevant and offensive. Women have been oppressed for millennia on the basis of our biology, because of men exploiting our bodies. Women NEED single sex spaces on account of our biology which men can NEVER share, no matter how many drugs they ingest or how much cosmetic surgery they undergo. So they have no need of our spaces, do they? And you are a fool if you think these men believe they are really women. Why would they fight so hard for men's rights if they truly thought that?

tobee · 27/06/2020 15:48

Oh look it's a post an op and run thread....

Datun · 27/06/2020 15:49

Tut tut naughty woman for having the opportunity to put an intelligent point across and deciding to take the low road.

You're still doing it 🤣

At point in your life did you think that women were there to fulfil some kind of service on demand for you, when given the, um 'opportunity'.

I'm willing to bet you don't even know your doing it.

And the answer is still no.

Doyoumind · 27/06/2020 15:50

Oh God! Again?!

Do you realise how many people have come before you to educate us poor little ladies who know nothing?

Bore off.

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