Burgeoning plague of incels - apparently

[EASUYA]

This is quite the article from UnHerd; It seems to be putting the responsibility to prevent a future of terrorism on women settling.

unherd.com/2020/06/incels-could-become-the-new-vikings/

My synopsis of the article

• Vikings were raiders, who were driven to such behavior due to a lack of women.
• China and India may be facing a similar problem due to sex selective births leading to an excess of men.
• The west is also facing a similar problem due to women unwilling to marry down in an ever equal society. This leaves a sub group of men who aren't getting any.
• Incels make enthusiastic terrorists (ISIS recruits being promised wives / slaves).
• Preventing this is a feminist issue

men in their teens, twenties and even thirties don’t feel ready to get married and start married life
There are wider problems at work here. Reliable jobs aren’t as easily available, employees aren’t valued as much, houses are very expensive. An older man is more likely to have progressed to a stable job with a decent salary and be able to afford a house in which to raise a family. In general any man who can afford those things is attractive to young single women.

David is, that’s an excellent point. A large part of why men aren’t becoming appealing partners is down to lack of stability for young people.

I think it is a bit chicken and egg. I have a friend who would love to settle down and have a family but rents, won't do a job beneath him so is unemployed quite a lot and travels widely. He doesn't appeal to the kind of woman who is looking to settle down.

lack of stability for young people
true, no jobs, no affordable housing, how is anyone supposed to feel like a grown up if the hallmarks of adulthood are out of reach?
Not to excuse bad behavior but with no prospects no way to feel as if you have any status in life some people will just go 'fuck it' and disappear down a solipsistic rabbit hole

a strong hatred of alpha males who are more attractive than them, a hatred of women who desire alpha males, whilst still wishing to be the alpha male and attempting to emulate what they see as alpha behaviour
so.....they hate the thing that they aspire to be?
Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?

It's the position they want - top dog.

But yes, it is conflicting and prob not actually what they want if they had it.

Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?

Not really because I don't think it's actual hatred, more envy and resentment because the alphas get their "share" of the pie and more. The hatred is reserved for women.

so.....they hate the thing that they aspire to be?
Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?
Not at all. It’s called jealousy.

I think one or two posters mentioned it already: isn't polyandry the obvious solution to a surplus of men? Somehow I doubt it will have the the incels rejoicing, though...

I think that the reasons vary between countries.

China, India. Has an imbalance because girls are not wanted.
Why are girls not wanted? Because they are lower value.
So a societal shift needs to happen to change that.
I have also read that women are proritising getting an education and a good job. So that's a result of women getting more opportunities.

India, ditto.

In Japan, women are choosing not to marry as it curtails life. They are wanting freedom, to work etc. The male reaction to this has not been to change with this, instead many just shut themselves away.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/world/asia/japan-single-women-marriage.amp.html

In the UK and other similar countries, it's again a reaction to women's gains.
Women can earn their own money and have good lifestyles with lots of friends etc. They are choosier about who they date.

I see all of this as a reaction to women's gains in society. We are capable of looking after ourselves and when we meet men think, is life better with this bloke.

Remember that married men are happier than single men while the opposite is true of women.

Rather than upping their game, seems that lots of men feel angry and cheated. Entitlement.

Example. My friends experience of online dating has been awful. Dick pics, weird questions, lies etc etc

This idea that it's all about when looking for older men and the young ones are not in the picture is not something I see in my life at all. What I do see is women being more choosy because they don't 'need' a man. They earn their own money.

Also most women I know are married etc etc

The angry men definitely seem to have unrealistic expectations.

So I basically don't really agree with a lot of these comments.

I put it down to a backlash against women getting more opportunities. And rather than men upping their game, some seem to sulk, blame women, and want for women to be put back down again.

And lots of women don't fancy 'alpha' males.

These men are awful sexist wankers. That's why they can't get a date.

I think the author was just saying women should care about this because it affects our society/quality of life - not that women are responsible? Just like men should care about prostitution, sexual assault and things that could be thought to just be an issue for women.

PPs suggestion of modelling happy, fulfilled celibate men would be good. Perhaps encouraged to work on things that it would be harder for people with families to work on (eg due to hours, location)?

Likewise the Saudi Arabian deradicalisation programme essentially involved getting extremists married, and has proved very effective.

Married to who? Given the link between terrorism and domestic abuse, and Saudi Arabia’s human rights record, I’m not convinced that this is a policy that should be copied!

“And addressing this problem should absolutely be seen as a feminist project. Being consigned to a life of hopeless, low-status singledom makes men more violent, sexually dangerous and politically disruptive. This is not an excuse, but it is a reality. It’s straightforwardly in women’s interests to improve the lot of our own burgeoning plague of Wikings.”

It’s not clear what this ‘feminist’ project is supposed to be, if it’s not mothering or marrying these men - and I don’t think that is what most feminists would regard as feminism.

Being the entire world's mummy is not a feminist project, nor is soothing the wounded egos of angry men, nor is providing strokes for men's sad lonely penises. The whole incel thing is wounded entitlement, and can only be solved by those men coming to terms with the fact that they never were actually entitled to a relationship and either figuring out how to become someone women actually want to be in a relationship with or resigning themselves to being single.

If the countries with massive levels of sex selective abortion had a shift on that then that would help with the specific issues they're having, but honestly, is the incel movement being led from China? No, it's not, so the sex imbalance there is not the underlying problem.

It always comes round to the expectation that women act as caretakers for men's feelings

@SnuggyBuggy

It always comes round to the expectation that women act as caretakers for men's feelings

Yes, as usual.

I think that a huge part of, if not most of, the problem is down to pornography. Male sexuality is different to womens- it's far more aggressive, far more outwardly directed and focused heavily on self satisfaction. A good male sexual partner is one that principally has learned self control and self discipline. This spills out into almost every aspect of his life: self hygiene, employment, respect, anger management, etc etc.

A huge part of the aggression of young men is not an excess of testosterone, but that they have not yet developed the character traits and skills to manage themselves. Pornography and compulsive masturbation are essentially ways to encourage this. A PP suggested that these could act as a relief valve- it is infact the opposite. The more sexual self gratification a man has the more he is angered and frustrated he becomes because it is essentially unfulfilling, unlike the way a dynamic and genuine sexual relationship is fulfilling. I would wager £10,000 that these incels are all chronic wankers who consume porn at a ferocious rate.

The principle problem for women here is the way in which this two behaviours dehumanise women for them. The corollary to this is the way in which these men fail to learn the single most important skill to being a man- self control. If you want to enter into an equal relationship with a woman, you can't give up the fact that you are physically stronger, the (likely) bigger earner, etc etc. If you want a wife who loves you and enjoys being with you (which is essential for a genuinely fulfilling sexual relationship) then she can't be afraid of you. Which means she has to believe that you are in control of your temper and your sexual urges. Which means that you likely are able to moderate consumerist impulses, so you're probably mostly fiscally sound, you can moderate other pleasurable impulses, so you are less likely to be an alcoholic, etc etc.

Self control and self denial are vital tools in helping young men grow up into functionally desirable men, and infact functional men in general. Repeated exposure to porn and chronic masturbation keeps men boys and ensures that remain childish and selfish. It's hardly surprising that women find such men repulsive.

It’s not clear what this ‘feminist’ project is supposed to be, if it’s not mothering or marrying these men

We already have those like Rachel McKinnon, exerting homosexual females to 'learn to cope' with giving sex to biological males for social duty. Which makes it clear, McKinnon does not see female people as participating in sex for their own enjoyment or pleasure, or having the equal right to consent and taking from the relationship as the male born person. Providing sex - even sex they merely 'learn to cope with' as unpleasant and unfulfilling to them, is a duty. And refusing consent is an act of unacceptable disobedience.

Same thing.

These males see females as kind of animated service droids, they are not capable of thinking of anyone or anything beyond their own needs and the rage at anything failing to meet them. Giant toddler.

Bear in mind too that males currently live in a world where people like McKinnon say such stuff and is celebrated for it. It goes unchallenged on radio, it's very fashionable, it's not only justifiable to be this vile and dehumanising to females, it's downright brave and virtuous. Anyone pointing out the massive, massive issues with it is drenched in waves of rage and self righteous twits.

It confirms, it's ok to think like this. It's ok to have these attitudes to women. Follow the stunning and brave role models.

they shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person

In countries where there is no social welfare, it is quite logical for a woman who wants to start a family to seek a partner who is more capable of providing for her and their children.

But all these incels remind me of the men who have always been around, catcalling women in the street.

If you want a wife who loves you and enjoys being with you (which is essential for a genuinely fulfilling sexual relationship) then she can't be afraid of you. Which means she has to believe that you are in control of your temper and your sexual urges
Brilliant post. Some men need to tell our boys this

They don't.

They want to be allocated 14 yo who are virgins who they 'own'

Maybe not all but I have seen that a fair bit.

I completely agree with what B1rdbra1n said, responding to a post re 'Anyone who wants consensual respectful sex' -
"indeed but that wouldn't work for the incells they want sex which makes them feel superior, dominant and entitled to take what they want without any thing being asked in return
This is not sex for mutual pleasure this is sex as a means to exploit and degrade ".

I'm embarrassed to say I lived and had children with such a man. To this day I'm still not sure why I put up with him for so long (10yrs).

He was a friend of mine and when my ex left me with a 2month old baby this guy helped me with loads of stuff. He wasn't someone I would be interested in but he was nice enough and we had been friends for years. He then turned really nasty really fast making me feel bad for leading him on and telling me that I owed him as he did so much for me. It sounds so pathetic but I was in a really bad place at the time that I ended up caving in. He was a virgin and it became clear he watched loads of porn. He told me he deserved better than me and laughed at me when he first saw me naked, even when he ballooned to 26 stone and stopped washing all together he was convinced model like women should want him (I'm not a model in anyway).

He also would never take no for an answer and believed that I just said no to play hard to get. All of these things came out more after we had kids. He demanded or forced me to have sex with him every night and if I did managed to convince him I really meant no he would cum on me as it was his right.

Like I say I am embarrassed to say I ever got into that situation but at the time I was 20 with no confidence, a newborn and had just left my first boyfriend who I believed at the time was the love of my life. It's no excuse but it is what it is. When I finally left him his mum had a go at me for leaving her boy and he now lives with her writing angry stuff on Twitter about women not wanting him. He still thinks he has a right to me so isn't aloud near us. He has also put me off relationships and sex for life.

From living with him it's made me realise we are living in a world where some men are fed the belief that they can have whatever they want with no effort on their part and when they don't get it they get angry. These men don't want to be in any relationship with a human who has thoughts and feelings they want to be in one with a young model type who will do anything they want and if they don't get it they get angry at the world. I'm making a point of teaching my sons that the world doesn't ow them anything at to see woman as people with thoughts and feelings and my daughter that she must never feel bad for any man she turns down.

Sorry that went on a bit but just thought I would share.